However, the focus really is going to be on clinical and why it’s important to just keep learning and how neuroanatomy can advance your practice.
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Disclaimer: The following is an actual transcript. We do our best to make sure the transcript is as accurate as possible, however, it may contain spelling or grammatical errors. Due to the unique language of acupuncture, there will be errors, so we suggest you watch the video while reading the transcript.
Again, thanks to the AAC, um, for inviting me to be part of their, uh, To The Point show. And my name is Lorne Brown. I’m a CPA, a charter accountant. I’m also a doctor of traditional Chinese medicine in Vancouver, BC, Canada, and I’m also trained in laser therapy and, uh, I run healthy seminars and today we’re going to have a special guest. Um, my colleague and friend Poney Chiang, um, Poney is an acupuncturist as well. Um, he’s a neuro Meridian and neuro anatomy expert. And so he’s been teaching on healthy seminars so we can understand the neuroanatomy and neuroscience of acupuncture, both the classical and mainstream. And we had a geek-out session. So Poney and I had a Geekout session a couple of weeks ago, and we decided to share this with you, and I’m going to tie this into practice management. However, the focus really is going to be on clinical and why it’s important to just keep learning and how neuroanatomy can advance your practice.
And so again, I want to thank Poney for joining me today. Um, and there he is great to have you here and we’re going to, we’re going to geek out again. What I want to share with you is low-level laser therapy for fertility, and I’m going to give you a very short version story, but this has been my focus. I think I’m one of their early adopters outside of Japan using laser for fertility. And I do combine it with acupuncture. Um, and the reason, um, I started doing this was I came across a paper, um, where a medical doctor, Dr sure. Out of Japan, um, he, he he’s a pain specialist and he would treat people for pain. And he had this technique, which is later, um, been dubbed the Oshiro technique or the proximal priority technique. And he did a lot of work around the neck area.
And, um, he would always treat this first, before he treated the local area where there was pain. And in the story, the true story that happened here is he was treating a woman who was 55 years of age with menopause for back pain. And so he would do this proximal treatment. Um, the purpose is to create blood flow everywhere because if you increase blood flow everywhere, it would go to the toe and you’d go to the back and this would help with the healing. And so he did this technique with her and lo and behold, not only did he resolve her vaccine, but her cycle returned, uh, she wasn’t happy about that. And he thought it was a, one-off go see your OB GYN, cause it could be something serious. Well, within the calendar year, he was treated another woman in menopause for back pain.
Her period came back. So what they decided to do in his, at the hospital is they did a very small pilot of about 74 women that were translating to English as severe infertility average age, 39, several years of infertility, um, many cycles of art assisted reproductive techniques. And about 23% of them became pregnant. And over 60% had a live birth rate. And this is from a very poor prognosis group. And then they expanded that study to 701 women and 23% got pregnant, 50% got it, had a live birth. And his thinking was the reason these women had an improvement in their fertility is when doing this technique around the neck. Um, it created a parasympathetic response, which they were able to measure using thermal photography and other lab tests. Um, it would increase blood flow everywhere, including blood flow to the ovaries and more blood and circulation to the ovaries, better follicular Genesis, and lo and behold.
This was the reasoning why they thought the improve the fertility in these women. So I had been working on my protocol and I’ve spoken to practitioners around the world that are experts in laser therapy and treating fertility. Some that are treating the endometriosis and they’re doing stuff around the neck. They’re doing stuff locally on the abdomen. There’s doing stuff on the sacrum as do I. And I wanted to know why for a couple of reasons, one is it’s important to communicate to the patients how this will benefit them. And also the, the, uh, IVF doctors I work with. They want to understand this from a Western perspective, it’s, they’re not going to learn Chinese medicine. And so it’s important for them to understand that from a Western perspective, here’s the small little practice management tip and then pointing is going to come in and I got some questions for him and we’re going to geek out.
The practice management to appear is because I became well known as an early adopter for laser, for fertility. And because I invested in these machines, just so you know, um, I have several machines machines, each one’s, um, about $25,000 or more. Um, and I invested in these and women before COVID, uh, were flying to my clinic to be treated by this. So it wasn’t something I was expecting, or it would happen, but because I separated or separate myself from the pack, in a sense, I was doing something different. I was doing acupuncture for fertility, but I was bringing in laser for fertility. And I was able to explain from a Western perspective, how this can benefit and become familiar with the papers and share this, this attracted both, um, Western doctors and the public to seek my clinic for these treatments. So here’s the Geeko part because it’s important to know you can’t just buy laser, start doing this.
You want to understand how to use it so you can keep using it better and patients have questions. And so we have doctors, you got to explain it. So if pony can come back on here, pony, I got some questions for you. They talk about this parasympathetic response and, um, for acupuncture. So I’m going share with you. They talk about the anatomical features, but what they did is they did points in the nuclear, the also pity area. So do 15 bladder, 10 gallbladder, 20 area. They did stuff to, to reach the vertebral artery. So gel 17, um, they did the carotid stomach nine, 10, and they wanted to hit a feature called this Dalai ganglia, stomach 11. And can you explain to us in pony, how is this? Cause this is something we could use on all of our patients. If it’s going to bring chief flow everywhere, um, specifically also for fertility, can you explain then why these points stomach 11, 9, 10 do 15. How is this going to engage a parasympathetic response and increased blood flow everywhere, including the reproductive system?
Sure. Uh, if we can have the slides, please would make it easier for us to explain. So when you’re doing points, um, on the occipital area, um, or looking at points at gallbladder 20 blurred, 10 points in this area are actually where, as you know, the cervical portion of the trapezius muscle goes there, you might not know about cervicogenic headache. Ty traps can give you headaches, right? But the attribute this muscle is interesting is that as the muscle innovated by a cranial nerve 11 spinal accessory nerve. And so when you put a needle in trapezius muscle, including points that Goldberg 20 bladder, 10, even Goldberg 21, um, you are stimulating the spinal accessory nerve. We used to think that spinal accessory nerve is truly a motor nerve, but now we know that it’s actually sensory and motor. So what that means is that as an African bring information back to the brainstem, back to the nucleus of this cranial nerve 11, and what’s interesting is that quite another 11th nucleus is right adjacent to the cranial nerve 10 nucleus, which is a Vegas nerve.
So it is known that there’s new Peters have interactions with each other. So this is why simply needing points that GABA are $20 21. Anything that is supplied by the spinal accessory nerve will have effect from the cranial 11 nerve nucleus to the or 10 biggest nucleus. And as you know, Vegas, 90% of the body’s parasympathetic response. So we can easily explain how points in the back of the neck can achieve this increase in parasympathetic state and therefore more profusion to all the glands and organs of the body. Now ask for points in the front. Um, uh, while you’re looking at here in the dissection picture, uh, it’s got the throw in the south big is all removed and D these long, um, cell tissues that the, um, the probes are supporting or raising, it’s called a, it’s called a cervical sympathetic ganglion. So, um, uh, if you look at the diagram on the, on the bottom, you’ll see there’s actually three cervical sympathetic ganglia superior, cervical, middle cervical, and thoracic also know as the Stella, as an a star.
So, interesting thing is that every single one is Ganga are actually an acupuncture point. That’s already been passed down to it by ancient acupuncture or ancient acupuncture anonymous. And when we stimulate these points, if we can look at the Sutton, the next slide, please, there are correspondence like given to us in terms of the point. And the exact ganglion does involve without going into way too much detail. Okay. But you should want to gangs are actually supplied nerves to the heart, the cardiac. So they each one of these gangs individually and collectively supply the cardiac nerve that controls the contraction. So if you are modulating this, you are improving cardiac output. Therefore it’s an increased blood flow to everywhere in the body. So this is likely how the Ashira protocol was able to, to, you know, inadvertently increased fertility, you know, even though the focus in our neck, but because it’s affecting the civic center Ganga, which is known to control the, the, um, the heart rate, it’s increasing cardiac output, which gives you blood everywhere, including reproductive organs.
Brilliant. And thank you for that. And this is, so this is why I think, because it’s on the parasympathetic, I think of cheapo like liver cheese stagnation would become tight and constricted and that’s authentic. And when you’re in parasympathetic that she’s flowing freely, which is probably why most of the research, the women 38 and under seem to be benefiting most from laser fertility, because they’re the cheese stagnation type. And once you get into the 38, plus we’re probably getting more into the kidney in, in young deficiency. And, um, maybe we’re not able to, um, with the laser therapy do enough for them. And so this is my working theory. I think a lot of the women we’re seeing that we’re helping have a form of stagnation in Stacy’s. The laser therapy has other benefits, too. It helps regulate inflammation. Doesn’t Al not only just increased blood flow and it does help improve the mitochondria functions.
So there’s all these benefits back to our neuroanatomy. So myself included, a lot of people started wanting to put the lasers closer to the ovaries, but in the laser world, um, red and infrared light, it’s really difficult to get that kind of light to the ovaries in the Oshiro group. They did the neck and they also did a point near when 12, they didn’t say why I was thinking, they’re trying to hit the ovarian artery because it kind of comes off the aortic arch near there. But you’re telling me from a neuro anatomy perspective, there’s a different level. And, um, can you tell me why there might’ve been benefit from then doing the, the red 12? Is there any reflex points or anything happening in the abdomen that we’d want to target and before you go, they’re pointing. I just want to share that where we’re at today is we want to do the approximal points.
We want to get the blood flow. We want to hit some lymph nodes that are feeding the abdominal area. And I want to talk about the lotto gene, a lot of non Chinese medicine, trained, um, laser therapists, um, always treat the nerve roots coming out that are innovating the area they want to effect. So this is kind of what I want to cover with you today from a neuro anatomy, neuro Murray and acupuncture specialty, what are we doing from a Chinese medicine and Western perspective? So is there any benefit doing something locally that’s going to help, um, with the ovarian function and uterine receptivity, keeping in mind when we talk about the needle or the laser, the laser is not going to reach therapeutic level. It’s unlikely. It’s going to reach the ovaries and you’re not going to put a needle in the ovaries, right? You don’t want to do that. So, so what is happening here? What are we doing when we do these lower abdominal points that can be impacting the reproductive system, or were they just having happy thoughts? And there is no real benefit from the run 12
Area. Uh, if we can have this slide with the sympathetic and parasympathetic, uh, innovations of the spine. Um, so while we get that ready, let me just explain that. Um, in Chinese medicine, we’re talking about ying and yang, visual, Oregon in Western medicine to have a similar and how we try to achieve healthy balance in Western medicine has similar notion of homeostasis where you’re trying to balance the parasympathetic and sympathetic nervous system. Yes, that’s the mind. And so it’s, to me, they’re very analogous concepts in Eastern medicine, and we’re trying to balance any, obviously Oregon in Western medicine, we’re trying to achieve sympathetic comparison, like balancing short and, and, and the other student is that each organ has both sympathetic and Paris, the next innovation. And they both do their job to encourage ensure optimal function of each Oregon. So if I can draw your attention to the left side of this diagram, what you’re seeing here is the spinal cord. And those little dots are horizontal lines that are coming out from the blue dots. And the blue lines represent parts of the sympathetic chain, which is, as you may recall from square thoracic or lumbar. So it’s [inaudible].
And so when you look at where those nerves go to, they go to various types of, of, uh, uh, plexus in gangland then, which then subsequently control the blood flow to various organs. So, um, as you know, a lot of the, the, um, uh, fertility related points, um, um, uh, they took on shirt for on the actual point, um, stomach 29, which was supposed to mean gray line is returning the period, right? So these points are located in the lower pelvic area. So where, um, so how can we account for this based on this, um, understanding of the sympathetic person and never system, if I can draw your attention. And if we really hone in to the very, very bottom blue nerve on the left side, it’s called a lumbar spine secondary. And, and, uh, so if you have a laser there, right there, perfect.
And you can see that, uh, from there there’s one more pink, red color that comes out, it’s called a hypogastric plexus, right? And then if you look at the very, very bottom word in the gray box, it says reproductive organs. So that means that if we can trace the report organs, blood flow to the hypogastric plexus, which by tracing one level up to the lumbar spine CIC nerve, and then back to level L one L two. So if we look at the points that are in that area, it’s going to share in stomach 29th. And, and it’s only Tanya that if you look at the indication though, I have to do with, with fertility, with men seas, with reproduction. So we can explain that because those points in that area are exactly Lyn 12 region of the, of the, of the dermatome. So by, by putting nerves there, we are having what’s called reflexive effect.
The needle stimulate T 12 L one nerves, which travels back to the spine. Does these nerves wrap around from the spine around to the interior as aspect of the body, does the Afrin sensation and back to the spine and reaches is corresponding T 12 L one segment. Now each second, each second response has sensory motor, as well as sympathetic, um, uh, types of innovation. So we call this reflex effect. Once the Afrin reaches a segment, it was sent information to the corresponding autonomic levels, which in this case are digs, precise, autonomic levels of the, of the body that controls the, uh, cemetery output or the blood flow to these reproductive organs. So it is by, it seems that we’re affecting and locally, we are, we are in tenders that were needing over the ovaries for example, but the information is going back to the spine and then the spine, um, passes it through the sympathy, Oregon, which then sends it back into the Oregon. It’s effecting it’s instantaneous, but it has undergone a complete full stroke. It, but it happens so fast that it’s, it seems as if there’s an immediate effect. And
So, um, when you’re the, whether this spinal segment segments that are innervating the ovaries and cause, um, I’ve heard also in some of the literature I looked at, they were talking about like T nine T 10 and T 11 innovate, the old reason, S one S two more for the uterus. When you mentioned stomach 29 and Z gong, you’re saying that’s more like T 12 L one. And we, when we did get go, you did say there’s like a Christmas tree effect. So when you’re needing below, you’re still getting a lot of these or lasering. You’re getting those above, but can you just clarify what you’re seeing there? What’s from this diagram, what’s innovating the old reason what’s innovating the uterus from the spinal second.
Okay. So if you were to, to, uh, look at the Y to Jaggi points or the, uh, the back shoe points along the spine, um, re recall what we were about the sympathetic chain is [inaudible] right. So all two of bring us to 2023 level and our be 20, 22 levels. I say bladder 2023 level is two. And then bladder 22 is our one. So, um, now we’re talking about what’s called the dorsal Ramiah of the spinal nerve, as opposed to the veterinary. And I, when we were talking about needing the pelvic area, those are the parts of the spine of that came forward. They call the interior Mr. Ventura, but there are ones that go back to integrate the muscles around the spine. And those fellow doors are in mind. So if you needle L one L two, which happens to be bladder bladder 22, 20 23, and these are the points that we would use anyway, because there can use reproduction in Chinese medicine, right? Actually, probably that you need to read it by KMS, but if you need, at that level, you are still at L one and L two. So the same simplest reflux applies. It’s just that now it’s happening through the posterior branch as opposed to the ventral branch, but at the same permission will ultimately go back to the same segment, L one L two and then cross into the sympathetic, uh, aspect of the, of our body. So
Again, beautiful Chinese medicine that we have, the front middle and the back shoes. If somebody is facing, we can treat anterior, we can do the Z gong and stomach 28 are still make 29 points and have that reproductive effect at the point say, or if we’re treating them face down, we can do the back Shu point, like we know for a kidney for reproduction. Um, and again, same segments so we can dress it, both sides. So the Chinese medicine approach understood this 2000 years ago. And now with neuroanatomy, we can explain why you can do it face up or face down, and you’re still having that effect. Am I, if I’m understanding
You correctly? Absolutely. And there’s this one tiny, tiny bit I can add to that is that we’ve been talking a lot about what’s going on to lifestyle as a slide today. Let’s take a look at the right side of the slide, which is a parasympathetic. So it, um, ultimately when we need all yes. If, if we can just focus on the sacrum area on the, on the bottom where the black two black lines coming out. Yeah. Or that area right there. So oftentimes I get asked, um, you know, if you’re stimulating a SIM and say, isn’t it that gonna reduce blood flow and, um, and, uh, uh, we only want to stimulate the parasympathetic that that is correct. But what we do know from a lot of studies in acupuncture is that, um, uh, the ultimate net gain effect that acupuncture is parasympathetic. It, even though it’s limit points are supposed to more sympathetic is a very short transient effect.
It’s almost like the body knows that, oh, I’m feeling more sympathetic. Now I can activate my own homeostatic mechanism to go towards parasympathetic. So the end result will always be parasympathetic. So you can think of it as using the young, to treat a year in Chinese medicine kind of concept. Okay. Obviously they are obviously see within each other. So inseparable concepts. Now let’s take a look about a, the Paris Stemmet idea. We would need a formula that directly. So those are your, your, your, um, your secret for MRR points, but our 31 32 33. So if you look at the bottom, uh, of the right side of the, this fixture, um, you’ll, you’ll see that these, um, these nerves also supply the reproductive organs, right? You see that there’s college coming up from there, from the black lines on there, right? It’s not just a red lines on the left.
That would mean that we put our origin as well. So just, if you want to be super finicky, theoretically speaking, or anatomically speaking, it’s only as two and three and onwards would have the effect. So that means [inaudible] or bladder 31 is not as important here. So if you have the ability to palpate the real for a minute and try to put the needle into that for, to affect those points, you want to target as to it onwards. So if we can have the very first slide, we can jump to the very beginning, we get it, we get a sort of inside out view. There it is. The inside our view of what happens in the sacred and the inside. And you see all those nerves and all the blood vessels over there, they actually communicate with each other. So when you put a needle into [inaudible], we are increasing the parasympathetic control of the pelvic organs and blood flow directly.
Now you may look at this and realize that, oh, this is kind of like the Sonic nerve, right? These nerves become the side nerve NSI. And it goes all the way down to the back of the thigh, into the lower leg, even down to the foot area. And what’s the point that’s most commonly associated gynecology in all the Chinese medicine, spleen six, right? As many as six lies exactly on the site, Agner trajectory. So even though you may not be needing the second directly by noodling spinning six, you are liking kneeling in the sacrum indirectly. What’s the message comes back to you because the sciatic nerve is, um, as, um, uh, alpha syn two segments. So crosses these these segments so that you will have a direct impact on the blood flow to of the, of the pelvic organs, reproductive organs, your genital organs, and so on and so forth.
So these things that we learned from, from traditional indications that passed down, there’s absolutely no reason to doubt they do what they say they do. It’s just that we don’t have the understanding to catch up with these information. But, but, uh, another thing is that if you understand this new anatomy, then you can actually create more points. So points like, can you four, can you, five are all derivatives the Stagner and, and, and you can see why they will also potentially be very effective for treating fertility issues and you can create your own protocol. So once you understand the new UNM, I remember
When we had our offline geek-out session, you’re sharing how spleen six, the nerves, a little bit deeper, but easier to reach it, like kidney three or kidney six, because of this reflex point. That’s what you’re talking about now.
Yes. So the, the, the, the part that say that reaches that immediate aspect, the ankle is called the posterior tibial nerve. So if you go through Spain stage, they actually got to pass through a muscle called the Fetzer digitorum muscle, you know, to get to the dinner. But if you go a little more distant with when the nerve becomes more superficial about, at the level of CUNY 3, 4, 5, 6, those points you can think of it as, like, can you say X four or more for year and aspect, right. Can you three for CI aspect, those points are still derivatives of the sagging there. So the message was still go back to the, to the S two S level two to improve circulation of that pelvic pelvic organs. So there’s no re ne no reason why you can, it cannot add another level of TCM on top of that heel. How do you decide within Spain six or seven spins three? You know, they are all Threadless. I never anatomic issue at work, but, you know, six might have more yin indications or is three might have other indications, you know, or you want to use a more of a, a low point. Like, can you afford, for example, so you can, how they’re actually not mutually exclusive. You can actually refine it further with, with a TCM lens on top of it.
And this is why, um, I like studying with pony and why I recommend pony. Um, I remember one of your course on healthy seminars, you’re talking about these nerve roots and having this discussion about the sympathetic and parasympathetic and how you mentioned you’re reaching the sympathetic, but it has this parasympathetic effect, because I think you were mentioning, there’s like three that were coming out from the dorsal root. Um, you reached the more superficial one, but when you reach that superficial one, they’re like their siblings, they’re all affected. And therefore you’re getting that parasympathetic as well. That’s right. And so, um, tying this together then, um, I just want to share with you that, uh, the Chinese medicine aspect of it, it just blows my mind still how brilliant it is because we’re choosing points based on a different paradigm. However, in modern times with this incredible technology, it is explaining it is validating these points.
And I know some of my colleagues are purists and they don’t want to know anything about the west. And I like to know as much as I can about both. Um, because as you’ve shared, it can help direct your treatment in choosing your points. And what’s really valuable in clinical practice is my patients and the doctors. I work with the medical doctors. Um, they’re not going to understand the back Shu point for the kidney, but they want to understand how this nerve root is going to innovate the old reason. If I do this, we know there’s a parasympathetic response, which brings more blood flow there or activates this organ. That’s important to them. And so this is why I highly recommend the integrative approach. It does not mean forget about what you’ve learned and forget it, what acupuncture. It really is going deep into the classical and going deep into neuroanatomy, but with a trained acupuncturist, like pony Chung, because you pay tribute to both medicines, you don’t dismiss one or the other, and you’re constantly the two which helps with clinic, you know, myself.
Um, I’ve invested, it’s almost embarrassing. I was looking, I have over $260,000 in lasers in my clinic now we’re, we have many practitioners, so patients want it. So we need to have these lasers. And I don’t know how many thousands of hours I’ve invested so I can keep, um, modifying how I do it. So I can be individualized and improve our, our approach. And as you can see, I’m talking to people like pony. We did this conversation, a version of this offline. And then I just said, you know what? This was so fantastic for me. I want to share this with everybody. And so this is why we came on and did a mini version of what we did already, because I think this is really beneficial. And so my message here is not to be scared of other things like laser therapy. It’s incredible how it’s transforming my practice.
I use both the acupuncture and the laser in my practice for fertility. Um, and so that’s been valuable. It’s made patients, um, want to, um, come to my practice for these treatments. And I keep learning and talking to people like pony, um, cause it gives you the confidence and the key is to be able to communicate why you’re doing what you’re doing. And so I’m not suggesting that you just violate her and start to do it. Um, just like you wouldn’t want somebody just to do a weekend acupuncture course and start doing acupuncture on people. You do want to under, you want to get good quality lasers and you really want to understand what you’re doing so you can play with your protocol. I have to give another big, thank you to pony again, for the cadaver work you’ve been doing. And just the deep dive you’re doing in neuro Meridian acupuncture. Um, and, and bringing this to the masses again, you can study with pony on healthy seminars.com, um, and a big thank you to the American acupuncture council for inviting me to host this show. I want to let you know that your speaker next week will be Poney, Poney Chiang also hosts a show on the AAC. So tune into the ACC and you can listen to Poney Chiang and hear what he’s going to talk about on his show. Uh, thank you all very much and Poney, Thank You. Have PTT anytime. All right, till next time