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Segmental Acupuncture



Josh regularly, pursues high level trainings in cranial and visceral manipulation and has profound understanding of the interplay between the nervous system internal organs and musculoskeletal system.

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Disclaimer: The following is an actual transcript. We do our best to make sure the transcript is as accurate as possible, however, it may contain spelling or grammatical errors.  Due to the unique language of acupuncture, there will be errors, so we suggest you watch the video while reading the transcript.

Hi, my name is Poney Chiang from Toronto Canada. I teach continuing education courses from Uh, welcome to this week’s live Facebook podcast show for the American Acupuncture Council. My guest for today is Josh Margolis. Joshua has been practicing manual medicine and bodywork since 1995 and acupuncture in Chinese herbal medicine since 2001 from 2005 to 2009. He was a faculty at the academy of Chinese culture and health sciences in Oakland. And yeah, I keep on change here to medicine in college in Berkeley, teaching anatomy, orthopedic acupuncture, advanced channel theory and pain management. Currently Joshua is on staff at the osteopathic college of Ontario and teaches in the doctoral program at several bay area acupuncture colleges. Additionally, he teaches segmental acupuncture and manual therapy of courses for acupuncturists throughout the United States. Josh regularly, pursues high level trainings in cranial and visceral manipulation and has profound understanding of the interplay between the nervous system internal organs and musculoskeletal system. In Joshua’s years of practice in the bay area, he has gained a diverse, loyal following comprise of professional musicians, dancers, yogis restauranteurs, athletes, and as well as children, the elderly and those with severe chronic illnesses, he has been practicing art from a Copia in Santa Rosa, California in 2011, as a pleasure for you to, for me to be able to have this chat with you today. Joshua welcome.

Thanks for having me here.

And, um, uh, are you joining us today from Santa Rosa right now?

Yeah, Santa Rosa, California. Yeah. It’s morning time here.

So I have been hearing really great, wonderful things about your courses. And I look forward to view a study with you in person, hopefully sooner rather than later. Um, so this is why I wanted to, um, use my spot for a guest today to steal all your secrets. I want to, I want to pick your brain and hear what is it that you do? What influences you like brings you? What makes you, you passionate about what you do? So let’s start by, um, telling us a little about, about yourself. I know I already give an in in-depth introduction, but you know, who, or what influenced you the most, would you say as far as, uh, practicing clinically speaking?

Well, I’ve always had my foot kind of into two worlds. Uh, I don’t that are not the domain. So, uh, and I used to feel like I put on two hats. Those are the two worlds being manual therapy and acupuncture, and I’ve always felt I had to kind of put two hats on and be like, okay, now it’s anatomy time and I’m going to do osteopathy. And now it’s acupuncture channel time and I’m going to do some kind of distill acupuncture, ear acupuncture. So, you know, I got pretty quick at, at, uh, switching my hats back and forth. Um, but of, you know, uh, thinking about how to integrate those things has been kind of an ongoing question for me. Uh, the, those two hats. So there’s been a couple key influences along the way. Um, Michael Kuchera who is, uh, an osteopath, I think he’s in, uh, Kirksville.

Uh, he wrote some great books on, uh, osteopathy for internal medicine, uh, disorders, and it really talks a lot about segmental organization and how you can, uh, exterminate you from external stimulus, uh, affect the internal processes. Um, and on a, another from the acupuncture side, uh, C Chan Gunn Chan Gunn, uh, really with the intramuscular stimulation and that concept of taking motor points and acupuncture or a trigger points and going back to the spine and treating the spine first and looking at that as maybe, uh, a more centrally mediated problem that, you know, partially maintained at the spinal cord level. Um, those two were really big in, uh, kind of my early, early career, uh, and continuing on. Um, there’s so many, there’s so many and Carol Levitt, uh, from the Czech Republic was a physician who really turned me on to, uh, functional, uh, musculoskeletal assessment and looking more beyond, you know, beyond what is sort of broken, but more how, how does movement happen and how can we coordinate movement?

And that has really influenced my acupuncture, uh, as well as manual work. And then, you know, researchers like you pony, to be honest, because, uh, you know, you’re taking that, looking at, uh, acupuncture, meridians and points through two lenses and, and really doing the research and the background work, um, and that, you know, that, that sort of legacy from Joseph Long and, and the others from the sort of Toronto medical acupuncture to unity, um, have been, uh, uh, a real influence to me. I was lucky enough to study with a medical acupuncturist, uh, early in my, in my career in that. So I’ve always been, uh, most of my professional life and very interested in that interplay and understanding, uh, kind of how, how things work, not just what works for what, right. I’m sure

For you, it’s the same as it is for me. The, the excitement is being able to find the similarities and find the anatomy and it, and it used to have medicine actually independently validate each other. There you find, uh, you know, oh, this is that same thing in the nature thing. And I say exactly about this anatomy, and then it just, uh, you know, you can have, I’m sure we can have a lot of decals and about all these, like, oh, how did these ancient people know like this anatomy, you know, um, so Russo, I’m glad that we, uh, like-minded because I know, um, you bring kind of the best of both worlds and that’s what I like to do also. Um, so tell me about, um, segmental acupuncture. Uh, I see that you’ve been teaching quite a bit of workshop about them. I know that’s probably a very in depth topic. Could you just, you know, give us with the coleslaw version of, uh, give us a sense of what is segmental acupuncture? How is it different from, um, you know, like, uh, a, a TCM approach, for example?

Yeah, that’s a great question. Um, I mean, the key thing is to understand that our tissues remember where they came from. So during embryologic development, you know, our, our tissues, uh, migrate off of, uh, you know, essentially a segmented worm type of, uh, uh, you know, our embryo is kind of a segmented worm and our tissues literally travel off that in different segments, but when they travel, they drag their nerve supply along with, um, so during that, during development and then on into, you know, birth and adult life, those connections stay, uh, PTEN the, you know, the segmental, the body doesn’t forget its segmental organization. Even if those tissues might’ve migrated quite far away from the original segment. And, you know, you have the, you know, the germ layers, dermatome, myotome, and sclera tome. And so now people are talking about the viscera Tom or the Interra tome for the internal organs, but essentially you have the skin, the muscles and the bone sensation.

Um, those, those might not overlap perfectly, you know, the muscles move in a different way than the dermatome moves and works in a little different way than the sclera tone. So, uh, we can access all these different layers and these different laborers can have their own ridiculously related pain too. You can have that sclerotomal pain, you know, with, uh, with, uh, someone who has a nerve, uh, nerve root injury that might be like this deep aching, hard to pinpoint just sort of pervasive pain, or you can have that more superficial dermatome pain burning, uh, you know, sharp, oh, kind of electric type sensation. So, you know, understanding that kind of, I find it’s very, very helpful. Um, another thing, uh, to, to understand key points regarding that, um, concept that the nerves have been dragged along is that, um, everything in, uh, in a segment influences everything else in a segment for good or for ill.

So that means that, uh, if you injure something in a segment, then it facilitates, it lowers the threshold for irritation, for other structures that share that same, uh, Embry logic, uh, source that seems segmental source. Um, so that, that’s a really key concept to understand, and that can help us develop, uh, distal type treatments are not always distillable. You might be treating appendicular really for, uh, for a trunk problem, or you might be treating actively for, uh, a peripheral problem, but, uh, that, uh, that those relationships has really stayed at stay active. And you can, you can, neuromodulate quite strongly, uh, using these inputs. So for example, like I, I’m very into, uh, periosteal pecking, uh, that’s real popular in the, in the, uh, British medical acupuncture world, uh, Felix man, and, uh, um, Cummings, uh, I think, uh, they, you know, that that approach is incredibly effective for modulating.

The whole segment. You can have a person who has, you know, a terrible rotator cuff injury, and then you heck the periosteum along the greater CA uh, treater tubercles or the humerus. Uh, and then, uh, you can change how the entire myotome behaves, uh, quite quickly, uh, very, very effective, very, very interesting. So, you know, the key being the non, uh, nociceptive inputs, uh, into the, into the segment, uh, will, uh, beneficially affect all the other structures. And, and also, you know, consequently, if there’s an injury that will negatively affect all the other structures that share that same sick mental intervention. So, you know, things like an injury to the sake of spring to the SSI joint, for example, could, can mimic sciatica, you know, [inaudible], uh, dermatome. So, you know, they might have a sclerotomal injury of the ligaments and the, and the, uh, periosteum and, uh, bone, but dogs are gonna feel the sensation, maybe along the S one S two dermatome, uh, you know, their heart disease coming down, the T1 T2 dermatomes, that’s more of a autonomic related segmental, uh, phenomenon or liver disease can show up sometimes in the C3 four, cause the capsule of the liver is innervated by the phrenic nerve.

So you can get liver disease. People can feel that right sided, neck and shoulder pain. These are just some very classical examples, but are relevant to, to assessment, uh, and understanding, uh, potential origins of things. Um, you know, I’m, I’m not going to go too long on this, but another concept that’s pretty awful here that overlays is the osteopathic consent concept of the facilitated segment, um, where, uh, through prolonged irritation or, uh, enough of an initial insult that the segment will itself will just become irritated and stay in an irritated state. And that, what that means is that the threshold for irritation for, to, to cause, uh, tissues to respond is becomes lower. Um, the, uh, reaction may be higher and, uh, you know, to the extent that even a non what should be a non painful stimulus might, might, uh, read as painful in, uh, to, to the body.

So these are all, uh, you know, assessable, uh, for us as, as acupuncturists doing physical medicine, doing physical assessments, we can see signs of all of this. So, you know, there’s something we call it, the red sign and osteopathy where you drag your fingers. Uh, so vigorously along the pair of spinal tissues, kind of along the Quato druggie points, um, you know, 2, 3, 4 times. And you’ll see at a segment that is, uh, more facilitated, more, uh, active, uh, irritated that you’ll have, uh, extended red response. Uh, you’ll see, pin will stay red, uh, you’ll find pseudo motor activity, uh, muscle shortening tenderness, uh, and perhaps, uh, Teebo like motion dysfunctions, uh, at these segments. And these are mostly autonomic signs and they’re probably autonomically. Uh, they seem to be autonomically mediated. So, uh, a lot of what we can do is then look back at a chart for, you know, sympathetic, uh, innervation in particular.

And, uh, you can learn a lot about what’s going on. Uh, there’s been some research that really shows that these pair of spinal signs show up before internal medicine, uh, disorders are, uh, measurable often that, you know, as the Oregon is inflamed and irritated, it’s sending back, uh, signals that it’s in trouble. And then that facilitates the segment. So, you know, we have, uh, so Maddow visceral and this row of somatic reflexes in the body, as well as some ADOT some ADOT and, uh, this were visceral reflexes, but from the acupuncture standpoint, a lot of what’s interesting are the interface between the Soma, our musculoskeletal system, our muscles joints, uh, cutaneous nerves, and internal body. And we’re starting to be able to map this, uh, pretty, pretty well. There’s been a, uh, osteopaths really researching this, uh, trying to validate, um, osteopathic, uh, uh, therapy theory and, um, uh, you know, things that people are noticing clinically, right?

We’ve been collecting clinical data for, you know, clinicians on our patients for a long time, but to start to understand that a little more with the science behind that. So they’ve been looking at that for, you know, 120 years now or something like that, but we can see these things in Chinese medicine, like the moon shoe points are very closely related to segmental innervation. Some of them are pretty precise and some of them are a little off like the small intestine and bladder points are more probably affecting the parasympathetics to the, to those organs rather than the FedEx small intestine much, but certainly the bladder and the uterus and so on using them like Bali out on the lower, the lower shoe points, the mood points are pretty, pretty, pretty well, uh, line up, uh, with very few exceptions, uh, segmentally, um, you know, things like spleen six, we can understand a little bit more about what we’re doing, and then there’s all these, you know, various techniques that have come out of, uh, mostly Western medical acupuncture, um, that are, are very helpful for us in the clinic. So that’s, uh, maybe a longer answer than you were looking for, but

No, that’s good. It’s important to lay the foundations. Right. Um, so the, the, the facilitation that you described does a work both as a lot of this, I be so sematic. Um, so that there’s some, if you have a chronic elbow issue that can lead to its corresponding segmental, glandular, or organ dysfunction, or like, you know, somebody who has a chronic organ issue when being more predisposed to certain types of joint or muscular movement disorders, um, that does that theory apply in both directions.

Yeah. That’s a great question. And yes, it does. Um, any, any irritant, you know, of enough, either severity like intensity or time will eventually have the potential to, uh, facilitate a segment. So when you go somato visceral, um, usually that’s, uh, like say you have like an upper back restriction, which could affect your, uh, cardiac function. There was like some cardiac chiropractors did a study and I’m sorry, I cannot find the study anymore. But I remember reading this study where they showed that there was a correlation between forward head posture and cardiac disease, for example, so tension in those upper, you know, 3, 4, 5, 6 thoracic vertebra and lack of movement, lack of nourishment seemed to affect cardiac function, have a interrelationship to cardiac. Um, and you can see it the other way. So, you know, someone has, uh, like heart disease. They’re going to potentially have more medial elbow pain because you’ve got that T1 T2 dermatome.

There’s going to be a, uh, there’ll be more easy. It’ll take less to injure that area. It won’t necessarily become like allogenic, except for in a more like severe case where you may have ongoing, uh, pain, like in head zones, for example, uh, and whatnot. But yeah, it’s, that’s important that concept that, uh, the somatic visceral, visceral sematic, it goes both ways. The work of, uh, uh, Akio Sato or Saito I, Japanese researcher, he wrote a great paper, like in 1997, that summarized kind of all that, all that stuff. Uh, and then, um, Myron Beale and Louisa burns are osteopathic researchers. Who’ve done a lot of work on the, on, on that, the sort of somatic and some out of visceral reflexes. There was a lot of literature on it actually. Um, but the Seto work is particular. It’s interesting because he was particularly looking at like, what happens if he massages little parts of like a rat and then looking at their autonomic nervous system and what was happening in like gastric motility, uh, bladder and those kinds of things. He, he did a lot of study on that. Him and his group did a lot of studies on that kind of thing. And I did the paper from 97 is sort of his retirement paper that covers all of his other videos. So the basic idea from the one,

Yeah. Uh, I wanna, I want to touch on what you talked about with the frame that phrenic nerve and its relationship to the capsule around the liver. Um, just as a reminder for everybody, because when I found out about that, that I was like, it was like a mind blowing emoji, like, uh, I, uh, when I thought about that, like, you know, the phrenic nerve innervates, the diaphragm, the diaphragm is in the TCM hypochondriacal region. And we also associate that liver she’s technician, right? So there’s a connection to the diaphragm and the FedEx nerve and the signs and symptoms there, but she’s stagnation. And now you have like actual anatomical basis to explain that the friend in there for some reason, get sensory information from the capsule and deliver. So the state of the tension, you know, Chinese person talks about like softening deliberate as a course of treatment.

The state of the tension of the liver through this capsule somehow is information that the phrenic nerve needs. And presumably that sensory input has there creates a reflexive, um, motor output to control the contraction of the, of the diaphragm. So it’s really, really beautiful that like, there is a connection between the liver and liver moving the cheese, you know, the, the, the, uh, the extradition we have in Chinese medicine. Yeah. So I, I, and now that’s related to like, you know, cervical radicular, apathy issues at the, you know, the upper cervical area and it’s associated with dermatomes and upper back. Um, it’s, uh, it’s just, you know, so exciting. Um, do you notice patterns like that? You know, like you can run a TCM and the patients, all of us all have like neck problems or something.

Yeah. Oh, certainly. I mean, certainly more like classical kind of distal acupuncture type techniques. You see all kinds of things that are sort of beyond the segmental thing and the, you know, like how did they figure out these interrelationships, like, you know, liver three improves blood flow at the brachial plexus. So yes, it works for neck problems. Right. But, you know, that’s a super segmental thing. Yeah. And the, and, you know, and you see the overlap with, as you mentioned with the liver, right. The C3 four, you know, you’ve got the super cool vicular nerves, you know, that’s a segmental relationship. So, you know, if the diaphragm or, uh, the liver at C3 four gets irritated, then there’s a potential to send hypersensitized C3 and four, which is, uh, you know, this whole, this whole region. So that kind of dive from attic or that, uh, trapezius pain that everybody sees often as related to, uh, some kind of liver congestion.

Okay. Interesting. So it’s all coming together. [inaudible] everyone has the richest, the nation, everybody has tight trapezius muscles. Right. So it can not be, um, I want you to discuss about German layers and, uh, do you use that, um, embryological concept and the way you select points or the way you assess a problem? How does that, how, how does that apply clinically?

Yeah, so, you know, the germ germ layers, dermatome, myotome, and sclerotomal, uh, just briefly those, those are the layers of, um, Misa term, he’s a normal development. So that’s what goes to make the dermatome goes to make the dermis. So the under deeper layers of the skin, uh, the myotome goes on to make the muscles that, and the sclerotomal goes on to make the, um, the, basically the spot, the spinal column and the ribs. Um, they, we do use the term sclerotomal a little more broadly in the adult, we know, refers to ligaments and bones, uh, and their innervation, but, uh, it’s so it’s used a little differently. The other two terms stayed pretty, pretty, uh, pretty, uh, uh, consistent. Um, but anyway, you know, one, one thing about using those different layers as these tissues migrate, you know, remember what I said earlier that the segment, uh, is continues to be interrelated and because tissues migrate it kind of different rates and different amounts, you may find that the dermatome and less Clariton don’t line up.

So someone may like have a broken phone, but you may be able to access the dermatome, uh, somewhere along the way. Um, or you may be able to access the myotome. You know, there’s a Hilton’s law, right? The, the, uh, that the, uh, basically muscles crossing a joint, uh, share fibers with the joint itself and with the, you know, overlying skin. So, uh, you can, you can access at any level to affect all the other levels. So, you know, that’s, that can be a really effective now, you know, thinking again, as general set mentally, you can go back to treat axially or peripherally for a problem. So if someone has a, I talked about shoulder problems earlier, right? So most shoulder, most of the shoulder, the glenohumeral joint is C5 C6, right? That covers pretty much the majority of the medial C4 on the, um, superficial bits and the skin.

But you could go back, uh, if someone had like a shoulder replacement surgery or frozen shoulder or whatnot, you could go back and look at the, uh, you could go back and look at like, see four or five and six at the neck, and you could treat the, uh, something I find is helpful is doing like a periosteal pecking on like C5, C6, uh, at the articular pillar can really neuromodulate the whole, that whole shoulder quite effectively. Uh, you could do that if you don’t do pecking and don’t have training in that are not interested in, you know, a stronger stimulation like that. You might just needle them all Tiffany in the neck, you know, do some deep repair of spinal noodling. Uh, you can run electrical stem, all those things are really effective for effecting, uh, sort of axial to peripheral. Um, you know, and then that goes both ways.

So if someone’s having C5, C6, right, C6 is kind of the, um, crisis point, uh, for the, uh, neck, right. Most mobile vertebra. And then it’s connected to C five or C seven, which already, which is one of the least mobile cervical vertebra. Um, and then T1, which of course has the ribs. So it’s more fixated. So there’s a sort of maximum movement, minimal movement right next to each other. And those time zones kinda ended up having problems. So you can, you could modulate C5 C6 on the, uh, C5. It like the greater tubercle of the humerus and C6 is more of the upper condoms or, uh, some parts of the posterior shaft of the humerus if you wanted to pack, but you could also look, okay, you can say C6, right, C6, you make a six, I don’t know if that’s coming out as a six, but, you know, in the old, uh, you could treat that dermatome only, you know, with like large intestine four or, you know, other other points that are related.

Um, so, you know, the germ layers, uh, I think are helpful, mark, conceptually, I haven’t found a way to go, like, you know, this is this and that, you know, like myotome is better for this, or dermatome is better for this, or sclerotomal, except for that, I would say sclerotomal stimulation is more effective for that really stubborn pain yeah. Pain that just won’t budge. And because there’s a lot of sympathetic innervation, uh, at the periosteum, uh, that kind of stimulation is really helpful if there’s like, uh, a, uh, some sort of autonomic piece and, you know, innovation is incredibly important. Um, and, uh, for everything including trigger points, right? You can feel a trigger point in if you know how you don’t even have to press the muscle. Cause there’s a pseudo-motor effect. There’s often a temperature difference. So, you know, every, almost every pain condition is going to have some change in the autonomics. And so if you, if you know how to look for that, that’s, that’s kind of a key to the assessment related to that, because your rotation at like a sclerotomal level, like a sprained ankle or a chronically sprained ankle is going to affect that whole segment. So you’re able to treat that, maybe that question.

Yeah. Um, just for our listeners, um, when Josh is talking about to a motor, you were talking about like, uh, the sweating, um, regulation of, uh, autonomic nervous system, right? Yeah. Yeah. So you’re able to is training, uh, palpate the, the, um, uh, the poor to the skin, um, in the vicinity of the trigger point and be able to diagnose, diagnose, uh, financial and point, even without having to push down to get that Asha tender feeling, just fine, touch alone, you’re going to start noticing some changes. Um, so this is, yeah, this is, this is really a very interesting, I, I, um, I, you know, everybody dermatomes in the mountains very well known third toast, you know, that started as the least well researched, but as, um, kind of the secret weapon in a way to be able to have that understanding, I would love to be able to combine those layers together and be able to treat, um, you know, cry problems from a different perspective.

That’s really, really interesting that you’ve had a lot of experience kind of seeing when to use which layer for which type of problem. Um, I also found it very interesting that like ligaments and, um, and, uh, and the attendants are, uh, part surely from the scotoma as well, because in Chinese medicine, they always talk about gene group, seniors and bone together as a binary. They don’t really separate those terms, um, you know, differently. So it’s interesting that those they share same, um, type of term, uh, German, um, innovations. Um, that’s finished up with the clinical Pearl. Um, uh, I heard that you have a lot of success in you. Um, I guess I’m very consistent results really inside a car. Is it possible for us to give, you know, give our viewers and listeners advice so that we can become more proficient in treating, um, such a debilitating problem as Sika?

Yeah, sure. Um, for a really acute sciatica, um, if there’s too much, uh, like muscle for boarding and spasm in the back or piriformis, uh, whether it’s, uh, radicular or a piriformis syndrome, these same approaches will, will be effective. Um, I often will use, uh, just the Bajan points, um, that, that when you get, uh, for really acute problems along the, and this is nothing new for Chinese medicine fans, um, really acute problems, the further away you are from the actual site often is more effective and like stimulating the cutaneous nerves, they’re the gene Wells or the, or the, the, uh, yang spraying points tends to be more effective for that really very hot acute pain. Um, I find you get a more complete, uh, regulation of the whole system. So I often will just for the first couple of visits at someone’s, you know, the people will get like brought in by their family member or, you know, couldn’t drive themselves to the clinic.

Um, those people I tend to use like often, uh, maybe kidney seven, especially if I can get a tibial nerve, you know, like, uh, if I can get a sensation down to the heel or to the toes when I, when I manually regulate it, those are usually my line of first, uh, first input, you know, maybe, uh, uh, like something up there up higher, just to, you know, because sick mentally, uh, in terms of like gate control theory, if, if you, if you stimulate something at a higher level than the problem that does have an additive effect, it’s not as good as like treating the right segment, but, you know, your even 5% more is a lot for someone who can’t move, you know, so, so I do add some points that are higher up, um, but then for more chronic or, uh, pain, or if the muscle boarding’s not too severe, I often use, uh, Craig pins, which is, uh, is a, um, medical acupuncture technique where basically you needling along the bladder or the Pato judgy line make a central module encompassing the segments that are involved.

Uh, you can go higher, make it more like a profusion, include the autonomic levels, but you just do the sensory motor level. So say Attica is primarily S one S two. So you really need to focus on the sacrum. You might go up as high as T 12 a to L two, to cover those autonomics, but then we’re going to add, uh, local points as appropriate. So glute, max and piriformis, both of them, you know, primarily, uh, you’re getting like L five S one S two, uh, glute max. I think you get a little lower as well, but the, um, those are totally related to the Syns towed to dermatome problem that the person’s feeling pain they’re having. And then you can then add, uh, points like laying ho or, uh, which is like a posterior gallbladder 34 it’s sometimes called and, uh, and a bladder 40 to get the peroneal nerves and the, the, uh, tibial nerves as well.

So, you know, I, you don’t, you can be very flexible in terms of how you, how you do this, but each module goes at kind of a higher frequency usually. So, you know, it might be one to two Hertz, centrally, uh, two to four Hertz in the gluteus Maximus piriformis, and maybe, uh, like four to 15 or even higher, if you’re doing, um, sensory nerves, uh, down the leg way, sometimes bladder 60, or kidney three, you can, uh, kidney or kidney six, you can get more of the sensory fibers down there, uh, with a higher frequency, maybe as high as a hundred Hertz. Um, but I find that this works well.

I’m going to ask a question for the benefit of the listeners, because I know they’re going to want the specifics. So for the platform that you mentioned for the two sag example, um, would you be doing electrical stimulation there too? And what if so our frequency?

Yeah, the phone, if I tend to use, um, I tend to use a higher frequency. I can use like a hundred, sometimes 200 times even 500. Um, I, I do it either two ways, depending on kind of either position of the patient or their own squeamishness either. We’ll put it on like a high-frequency with like one to two Hertz. So it just goes back and forth so that they get,

Uh, connecting electricity between the web spaces. Is that how you’re doing it, um, for web spaces? So you’d be connecting needles together, or,

Yeah. So what I do is I take, I’m trying to get the camera oriented, uh, it’s backwards area area. So, you know, what I do is I get into all the web spaces and then I tend the needle. So I take all four [inaudible] and I put one clip on there. If I’m using, if I’m using the ITO, I might do that at, um, I might do that at like, with the black one, because the black leads a little stronger, stronger uneven, uh, stem, so that, because I’m in more sites, I might need a little stronger stimulation. And then I usually wire it up to like kidney kidneys, seven ish, but kidney seven is where I personally seem to get the tibial nerve, most distal, tibial, nerve, most reliable I’ll hook those like, like that. And I would generally use a high, um, if the, if the patient is able to crank it up themselves, get seven, there’s still a fair amount of motor.

So if I’m doing that, you know, you don’t want to at a high, at a hundred Hertz, they’re just like not comfortable. So if I’m doing sensory only, I might clip it like two buff on one param and just get one, you know, to the medial, to, and the lateral to do at a high, high frequency, or I’ll clip it at a lower frequency. And I include kidney seven as part of it. Um, and have that, even if they have a slight motor contraction, and then if I’m doing high, I give them the box and let them turn it up. And if I sometimes I’ll do a, my, I use pantheons mostly. And so they have the option to run like an alternating, like one to two Hertz or, and then like a hundred Hertz. So it goes back and forth. So they don’t accommodate to the, um, they don’t accommodate to the stimulation.

Um, again, just a little more detail because otherwise where they’re going to ask the questions. So you are doing the baffle on the effect of the size, same side as the sciatica, right? Or are you doing both sides? Counter lateral?

I often will do both sides. I mean, I immediately, you know, it’s enough to do the one side, but you get some Asian, you know, if you’re having more, any less to the segment, then that’s better for the you’re going to get a better outcome. So that’s where a lot of them like treating the left to do for the right and on up to the down, all that sort of Neijing, uh, links, shoe talk, uh, comes from, you know, really.

And the last question to summarize the protocol. How long do you use the electrical steam that you mentioned? High-frequency so in the order of a hundred Hertz, but how long do you do it for,

I do it for really hot static. I like to do a full 20 minutes. I really, I want to, I want to overwhelm that segment with non nociceptive input. I mean, to the extent that they can stand it. So if they’re able to turn it up themselves, that tends to actually work better because it could be accommodation and then they keep raising it and accommodation, and then I might run to hurt somewhere else in the body, one to two Hertz just to help with the beta endorphin release, but you know, like a large intestine for stomach 36, something, someone somewhere else, uh, you know, stomach 36 is great. It’s part of the peroneal nerve part of L L five. So that’s gonna relate to the sciatic symptoms. So, you know, you can, you can use your logic, whether TTM or from like a neuroanatomical standpoint.

That’s amazing. I can’t wait to try it tomorrow. And, um, so, um, unfortunately all the time we have her today, um, if we would like to step study more with you, is there, are there any resources or any contact that you have, um, for our listeners to the viewers?

Yeah. Um, on the east coast, uh, I’m working with the, uh, Dow collective and that’s a D a That’s with, uh, Doty, uh, Chiang and pony and teach with them as well. So that’s exciting. Um, and, uh, the other place to find me is on Facebook. That’s where I keep most of my classes updated and that’s, um, uh, Lac. So that’s oh, as, and then, and then this is Mary T as in Tom, then Lac licensed acupuncturist, uh, OMT is osteopathic pathic manual therapy. So that’s my thing. And then the other way is to, you know, reach out to, yeah, I’m pretty fine to on the web and I can put you on my mailing list.

Yeah. Awesome. Thank you very much for sharing your experience and wisdom with us. Unfortunately, that’s all the time we have today. I’d like to thank all the, uh, other viewers and listeners for joining us, and don’t forget to join us next week. Uh, our guest for our hosts for next week is Matt Callison and Lau. And, um, thank you once again and have a wonderful rest of the day.