GWRHDDoran04272022 Thumb

Alchemical Chinese Medicine: Entering the Mystery



And in terms of saying that alchemy in Chinese medicine, Is this idea that we’re all perfect. We just don’t know it.

Click here to download the transcript.

Disclaimer: The following is an actual transcript. We do our best to make sure the transcript is as accurate as possible, however, it may contain spelling or grammatical errors.  Due to the unique language of acupuncture, there will be errors, so we suggest you watch the video while reading the transcript.

Hello, and welcome to another edition of, To The Point. Very generously produced by the American Acupuncture. Today on this cold spring day, I am really excited to have a guest. Leta Herman is now chemical healer and a TCM teacher. She has a podcast called the Inspired Action and she’s an author of several books.

One is through the mystery. Also the energy of love, connecting your circle and the big little guash of book. And she’s just a delight. She has a training center for her El chemical work called the alchemy learning center. And we had a nice long discussion by phone about her work. And I think you’re really going to be interested.

Many of you are really going to be interested in this. We’re calling this entering the mystery of alchemy with Chinese medicine and Leta. Please, introduce yourself, say hello.

Thank you. Thank you so much for inviting me, Virginia. And thank you to the American Acupuncture Council for having me here.

I’m thrilled to share this information with you in any way I can.

Yeah. Now we hear the word outcome. He tossed around. And some of us have studied it with Jeffrey UN for example. And it’s, and it really transcends just Taoism. And but how do you define alchemy or how are you looking at and trying to practice alchemy?

Yeah. So I think about, for me as a very generic word, and as there’s alchemy in the west as well as the east. So it’s a very broad word that generally means transformation, but because of the studies that I’m doing in alchemical Chinese medicine, I would like to define it a little bit more narrowly.

And in terms of saying that alchemy in Chinese medicine, Is this idea that we’re all perfect. We just don’t know it. And we need to like, as human beings, we’re here to evolve. We’re here to have experiences and we’re here to maybe even the Dallas would say fulfill a curriculum of this lifetime. And alchemy is about transformation in a big scale, on a big scale.

And it’s about how can we ask ourselves better questions about who we are? How can we take a journey along in our lives so that we can continuously evolve. And I think it’s equivalent somewhat to the Buddhist enlightenment idea where Buddhists are trying to achieve something in called enlightenment and in Daoism, we’re trying to achieve something that would be called a realized human being.

Jen Ren and and that’s a person that’s like a Sage or a wise person who basically is approaching life very differently than the average person. And there’s a long tradition in China of Chinese medicine, healers who have done this, like since they Meow and go home, but others as well, who were the ADA mortals, for example, that a group of people and there were others.

That group of alchemists who got together and they were working on their own evolution.

Yeah. And that’s solid bet.

So I, I know that we both not only studied with Jeffrey Ewen, we both studied plant spirit medicine. That’s a rather rare, esoteric subject. How do you bring that into this work? Or do you, or are you doing it more in a Dallas way? Is it a fusion of things?

It’s funny because I studied plant spirit medicine, which is truly a shamonic technique, even though it came out of the five element acupuncture tradition it basically incorporated the shamonic traditions with acupuncture and came up with a new and new kind of medicine.

From that perspective, of course, plant spirit medicine has been a native man medicine. Eons, but, so I studied that first and then I went on to study with Jeffrey Yuen and really delve deeper into the alchemy concepts. And then much later Jeffrey Yuen started teaching shamanism as well, which was just very interesting to me because I’ve obviously been attracted to the esoteric.

Day one. And I’ve always been working with people where I felt like I really wanted to get to the root of their problems. It’s like they, they didn’t feel well or they had emotional issues and I always wanted to find what is that root of the problem? What is that? Psychological, mental, emotional, spiritual root of those problems and both plant spirit medicine and alchemy are about that.

So I, I think that’s why I’ve been attracted to those different approaches.

Yeah. Yeah. I know the work that I did with plant spirit medicine was really, probably the most perfect. Lead transformative work that I did, despite a lot of meditation and other kind of traditions and practices.

And I had done shamonic work as well, but it was something It was from me. It was the straw that broke the camel’s back, so to speak on certain issues and traumas that I have. And so I’m really, eager and curious to see how you work and whether it doesn’t matter whether or not you bring that into it, because I know from reading, your book, the which is the entering the, what is it?

Which one is it? The through the mystery gate that. You have had amazing results with patients, very transformative, not just getting rid of just physical pain, but getting at the root of very deep issues and Yeah, excited to, to learn more about that. And so actually, since we’re talking about treatments, how, what is your treatment like?

Okay. Okay. I have two kinds of treatments. One is a set of treatments that are just ours. Two-hour long treatments that people do over a very long period of time. It’s called the nine stages of alchemy. And that’s really about cultivating your passion in life, your full potential in life.

I say it, the goal is to really get you to fly in your life. So that’s all of the kind of forward-looking. This is where I’m headed work. But before we do that, There’s a lot of the past. And we say a lot of skeletons in our closet, a lot of things that haunt us from the past or that are hooked into us and won’t let go.

And so that’s where we do longer sessions. We do a, basically we devote a whole day to someone’s healing in that perspective and the most common one we do in that case, it’s the 13 ghost points and the 13th ghost points is about those hooks. They use the word ghost. Which it doesn’t mean you’re haunted by an entity.

It could just be you’re haunted by the past. It could be that, someone did something to you or you had an accident, or you just had a really difficult childhood or some kind of abuse scenario and those things they, you’re not free in your life because those are hooked into. And so we basically have a whole day where we do the 13 goes points.

It usually takes somewhere between four to six hours. And we just give someone the time and the space and the honoring of what they need. To let it go to really, truly let it go. And it is a transformational, like I’ve had

phenomenal and also your head is not into the mentality of oh, keeping on the clock and the next patient.

And then, you can really dive in very deeply with people. That’s beautiful.

Beautiful work. And people always say, aren’t you more tired after you do a long day like this? And I say, no, actually I’m less tired because I’m not switching eight times in the day changing, getting people in and out of the room, et cetera.

I’m just devoted to that person for the day.

Yeah. That’s one of the things I like about the facial rejuvenation acupuncture that I do because I try to make it a transformative treatment. But it’s I’m just with someone for a couple of hours. And you can just slow down and just you, I don’t know, you just, for me, I need that time to go more deeply with someone than, maybe some people could just go in and give them a look and change their life.

But yeah I think also for the patient, they feel more cared for and can really open up and relax into the. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. Wonderful.

And the changes are pretty dramatic. Sometimes it’s right in the treatment room, where someone will say, oh my God, the monkey’s off my back.

Like I feel it. Or and they truly mean it. Like they come back in after that and they’re like, my life has completely changed. Sometimes someone’s voice will literally completely change. They might have a really high voice and suddenly. Lower voice or I’ve had people who that goes points are really interesting where I didn’t even know they smoked.

And that was an issue for them, but like a month or so later, they’re like, I don’t know why, but I just stopped smoking and I wasn’t even trying. And it was like maybe that’s because he were smoking. Because of this thing that basically were carrying around, it was latent in your body and now it’s gone and you don’t need that habit anymore.

You don’t need to smoke to deal with it, that pain.

Do you work with any prenatal trauma or.

Oh, absolutely. There’s another treatment that I do call the nine heart pains and then the nine heart pains treatment we begin with utmost source heart one, and that is supposed to be related to pre.

So in terms of just what you’re coming in with, what we’re basically a human being that’s incarnating. And that point is representing this, the start of a new ARN incarnation. And what’s all the baggage that might be there in the very beginning in utero. Wow.

Can you talk about the, so when somebody comes in how does the treatment.

I like to start with a little kind of ritual that I do with people, which is just talking and then having them pick a poem out of a book, having them pick a card out of a deck of cards, just to break the ice and get, even if I know them well, it’s just, they might be nervous. They might be anxious about getting there.

They just settle into something very simple. And then they get up on the table and. I take pulses and we, we do something really unusual in these treatments. We have an iPod or some kind of playlist with 20,000 songs on. And we shuffle it and they’re of all genres. And the idea is we’re trying to simulate how things were done in the ancient times where they had live musicians which I was really fortunate to see a similar type of event at mouth Shaun in China.

When we went there with Jeffrey Yuen, where these musicians were just playing. This live improvisational music and, there were symbols and all kinds of instruments. I don’t even know the names of, but that music was very. Emotional. It emoted things from people like people had tears running needed down their face.

And we’re here where, we don’t really know Chinese music as much. I have Chinese music on my playlist, but it’s more than that. It’s we need music that we can identify with. So I put every genre I could think of good, bad, whatever. You’re. Opinion is about music.

We have it all and we don’t segregate, we don’t we don’t try to limit it in any way. And so what we’re doing is just allowing the music to vibrationally. Move the treatment along. And the treatment itself is a vibrational technique. It’s about shaking up stuck patterns.

All alchemy is vibrational in the technique. And so it’s really about stimulating something that is been stuck and trying to really evoke more than just transformation. I like to say transmutation something really. Stronger than a slow evolutionary change.

And are you using needles or is it more energetic or.


am feeling I have, I, you can do needles or not needles. And I personally do not use needles for alchemy. I use my finger as a needle, and the idea is, I don’t want the separation of between me and the person of the needle. So energetically, my finger becomes the needle. So I just call it non needle needling.

And I always recommend my acupuncture students attempt to do some of these treatments with needles and without, and then they can choose how they want to do. It’s a little more challenging to do some of these treatments with needles, because some, in some of the treatments, the needles are retained and there are needles on the front and the back.

So it’s a logistical issue and it has been done. It’s not that it can’t be done, but there is an issue of, if you’re. Four to six hours on the table, the person’s going to have to go to the bathroom. What are you going to do about the knee? So there’s a lot of complexity that gets removed.

If you do the non needle technique,

and then you’re probably more apt to use your intention and transmit your G then just relying on the needles to do the.

Exactly. Exactly. And I really don’t recommend in general, I’ve had people who have gone to acupuncturists and receive the ghosts points and the, they did it like in a traditional stick, the needles and leave the room.

I don’t really ever recommend that because it’s such a powerful, emotional shift that it really needs to be. The, what I talked to people about is becoming an alchemical. Healer is really walking the walk with the client. So you have to be in the room. You have to be not only just not sticking the needles in and leaving the room, but each needle could take an hour to insert if that would be extreme, but it could because.

It’s takes that long for that person to allow the shift to happen. So you have to think of it in a totally different way. Becoming an alchemical healer is really different than just, how we’ve been taught Chinese medicine in general.

Now I understand even, even better why you’re doing it without needles.

Yeah. That makes sense. And can you talk a little bit more in detail about the nine stages of that? Yeah. So treatment approaches.

Yeah. Yeah. It’s actually my favorite work. The ghost points are very dramatic and they really shift people in huge way and it feels like a miracle often every day in my clinic, when I watch people walk out the door completely transformed.

That’s beautiful and I love that work, but that’s trying to get rid of something. That has been that package for them, that they that’s not about them, that they’re just trying to unload and. And then when you do the nine stages of alchemy, it’s like, how can you almost become more precious, like a metal that’s being polished and polished until it’s, beautiful.

And I feel we’re all a little bit tarnished and we need a lot of polishing. But in, there is something really precious. And so the nine stages of Alchemy’s. Just taking one step at a time. And I like to say that you can invent your own alchemy. There’s no right or wrong way to do it. I just like to say there’s some really.

A wise old ancient Chinese people that said, Hey, if you do it in this order, it works really well. So stage one is a treatment that we do. That’s just about E. It’s about creating more ease in your life. And so you do this treatment, maybe quite a number of times, you might do it over a whole year with someone where they’re just getting to a state of ease.

Now, imagine you might have someone who already has their. So you don’t need to do a lot in that stage. Maybe you do it once or twice or three times. And then it’s there’s not much happening here because you’re already there. You’ve done that work. So then you move on to the next stage. And the next stage is about I call it the best protections, no protection.

It’s about all the armor we wear and we don’t ever want that bad thing to happen again. And so we’re always on the lookout for it. We’re always checking for it and it’s tiring. It’s exhausting to live that way. And so what would happen if we removed that protection? Because we’re so good in ourselves and some of them throws a dart at you.

You just Dodge it. It’s not about you. It’s about them. They’re having a bad day and you can see that. And so once you start to step into stage two, you’re no longer protected. And then stage three is about all that prenatal stuff. It’s about the ancestors stuff. It’s about your past lives. So we need to unload that and then stage four, five, and six are where all the fun begins because you get to be, you get to be free of all that stuff and you literally start to shine.

You start to look like a light. And stage four is about being like a child. Stage five is about channeling and listening to the world and being like a wise person. And stage six is about really, truly flying in your life. Some of the immortals were purported to fly. And as late as in the 1950s people send, they saw them flying.

The movie, crouching tiger, hidden dragon, that’s not supposed to be just fictitious it’s supposed to be real. And what I like to say is I haven’t seen anyone levitate off my table yet, but I expect them to do it at some point, but they start to fly in their lives, and that’s really magical to see.

It’s yes, like taking off on a runway, it’s maybe some people have been taxing a long time, but they just haven’t been able to get liftoff. And a lot of this work is about that. And it’s about. Living what we call in our podcast, the inspired action podcast. We talk a lot about Wu Wei and stage six is about what is sometimes translated as non-action, but I like to call it inspired action.

How do you live that kind of spontaneity in your life, where you’re just free and easy and just, basically looking at the footsteps in front of you that are already there. And all you have to do is put your foot in there and put your foot in there and put your foot in there. You’re good to go.

So that’s on me.

I like that, flying in your life because that’s really more important than, developing some yoga city, some power You know it, I know I had a teacher who used to say, these people that spent all this time and energy, trying to levitate, even if it’s just a few inches or a foot off the ground.

And if they use that for, more of their inner development or for helping, world peace or something, how much more useful that would be. And yeah. I like that idea of people flying in their life. It doesn’t have to be something literal, and that it doesn’t even have to be that doesn’t even have to be the goal.

Any literal flying. It probably would just happen if somebody reached a certain stage. Yeah. Yeah.

Yes. That’s how I look at it. Exactly. And like I said I would love to see it literally, but I just like to see it as someone living their full potential and. It just really not held back by all the things that hold us back.

Yeah. And so what about 7, 8, 9.

Yeah interesting that you ask. So I decided a long time ago that I can only go as far as how far I’ve gone. And so I’m working on stage seven and I. I believe that in stage seven, you have to really go into the case. So to speak, you have to retreat from the world to do that level of work.

And it’s really about morphine. It’s really transforming in a big way. And in ancient times, in, for example, when I went to , there are caves, there were people. Basically living inside the cave for many months at a time, people bring them some water through a hole or maybe a little cracker too, but they’re basically in there until they figure their stuff out.

And so the idea is, I have. Been, I’m still very much in the world and I’m still like living a stage six life. And I want to keep working on my stage seven. And so therefore I don’t really want to take anyone else through stage seven, eight and nine. So seven is about this idea that you can morph.

You could completely transform yourself. Stage eight is that you can become like a ninja. You can become an. And stage nine is that if you become invisible, you need to learn how to reappear, if you want to. And there, there is a story of go hung when we went to gongs mountain where, he basically was surrounded by all his apprentices and he suddenly vanished and his clothes fell to in a pile on the ground.

And so he never came back that we, that I am aware. Or that I’ve been told. He obviously could still be a mortal walking this plane, but but the, his idea of immortality wasn’t necessarily that you had to come back that you just needed to transform into some other dimension.

Yeah. Also the, in India they say, if you reach a certain stage. Enlightenment or development that you have a choice, whether or not you come back to incarnate. And then


answer is you do come back to.

Yes. And that they not talked

about needs and desires and unfinished biz. Yeah.

Yeah. And we say that it’s stage nine is like being a Bodhi. PSAT’s a bodhisattva, you come back for the benefit of all and you’re coming back to help.

I’m going to bring you. Okay, here we go.

Okay. I’m back.

Yeah actually, maybe because of the tech issue, it’s a time to maybe it’s a sign to conclude this, but I would like to have you back and have you talk about the starry sky points and the nine heart pains and, there’s so much more we could talk about, unless there’s anything you want to say in conclusion,

Okay. All right. I was thinking that in terms of alchemy and just Al chemical healing in terms of like people who are doing acupuncture that are interested in delving into these concepts, it is it is like a a different roadmap for people it’s really about.

Am I interested in cultivating myself in terms of my own alchemy? Am I interested in becoming an alchemical healer because I want to transform as much as I want my clients to transform. And so I really look at this as like first, what about me? The practitioner? And I really came to that conclusion because in the beginning, I didn’t really think of it that way.

And it took me a while to understand a lot of that. Through my own cultivation. So as I did more and more work with this, I transformed much more quickly than I think I would have on my own. So I say to practitioners that every single time you do like a ghost point treatment or one of these treatments, the sign that you’re actually doing it well is that you transform as much as the client.

And I know that all of us have that experience of that big aha moment when the client shifts and then you shift as a result. But it’s way more apparent in alchemy. It’s really about not only the client, but the practitioner themselves. And I don’t mean that in a selfish way at all.

You’re not doing it so that you can transform but that’s one of the things that happens.

That’s, I always say that, people can memorize the classics and Chinese and what have you, but if they have. Cultivated themselves, spiritually and psycho spiritually. And if they haven’t learned to cultivate their cheek, then if there’s limitations on what you can do for people.

But if you’ve done those other things, it can transcend anything that you can find written, modern origin.

Yes. And so that’s why one of the things that we are doing is we have a website called the learning center and there’s an app as well called the alchemy learning center. And what we’re doing is we’re putting a lot of these.

Genes into a format that people can do on their own. So there’s things for both lay people and acupuncturists, and there’s this, just very simple cheek gung as an example of things that you can do to build your cheek, but there’s also, things about a deeper level of the five elements and how to understand ourselves on a very deep level, because if you’re doing alchemy, you really need.

Who is my authentic self, energetically, but also, in all different ways. And we talked a lot about the nine palaces, which we also, did a lot of teaching in that’s available there. And then we have something called the master outcome program. And that is for apprentices.

We have two programs now. We’ve. People coming from all over the world. So we have a virtual one and then we have an in-person option where you can come to the clinic and get supervision to do some of these treatments on your own. So when I did it, I had a teacher who really, mentored me.

Much many years later. Now I want to offer that to people as well, because it is work that is really hard to embark on your own.

Yeah. And it’s very hard to find an apprenticeship, people get out of school and they’re they’re not totally on their own, but th it’s not, there’s a reason that the traditional way was, a continued apprenticeship because that’s how you got.


Yeah. Yeah. And I like to say, we go to a lot of CU classes, and we get a lot of download of information, and I just took this one piece and I did it in the clinic over and over again. And now 20 years later, it’s I want to share that with others so that it doesn’t take you as long as it took.

To figure this stuff out. So I think in practice it’s much different than in theory. And so the theory is great and it’s great to get CS is about theory, but we all know we have to somehow translate that into practice. And I always feel like my gift is that I used to be a tech writer before I went into Chinese medicine.

And so I like to take something super technical and then bring it into something that is. Easy for us to learn and utilize. And that’s, that is the same as tech writing. Really. That’s really what it’s about. It’s a health

teacher. Yeah.

Yeah. So that’s what I’m doing at the alchemy learning center. We have ongoing programs that start every every six months or so.

And. And so we will take a new group through starting in September. So yeah, so we, and we have a clinic in north Hampton, Massachusetts, that’s called the alchemy healing center. And if you want to actually get the supervision and you want to shadow, for example, a ghost point treatment, Just be able to observe me doing the work.

You can come to the alchemy healing center and do that as an apprenticeship program. So that’s what we’re offering in terms of that. So again, it’s just, it’s really about you can go and do it on your own. Everyone knows what the ghost points are there they’re online. Like anyone could use them, but, are you going to just stick the needles in and leave the room?


do you use them? I taught school for years and all the beautiful, poetic spiritual sounding names and qualities attributes that are, attributed to them. But it’s how, you’re actually. Helping people to achieve those kinds of results that you can’t do from just reading the description, really it has to be an alchemical process for the practitioner.

Absolutely. And just, when I started out, I actually started from more of the five element tradition. My, my mentor was a part of the Worsley school in England. And so I came at it from more doing internal devil’s IDs and EDS, internal dragons and external dragons treatments, and then started incorporating the ghost points as another option.

And then I started learning more and more. But going back to those days, I remember feeling terrified about doing my first IDs treatment. I imagine that a lot of people are scared in the beginning. We don’t really understand it. We don’t know what it’s about, so we need a lot of handholding

and also you’re entering into territory of somebody’s psyche that you really don’t know what to expect.

And. You shouldn’t just go charging in there. I know, you know that.

Absolutely. And I think that the important thing is to remember too, in the beginning interestingly, you don’t want to, you think you want to do the ghost points with the people that have the most obvious, disruptive. Things going on in their lives either mentally, emotionally, or spiritually.

But when you train, I’m really looking for people that are a little bit, Pretty doing pretty well in their lives. They’re not in deep crisis because we don’t want you to train with someone who’s, everything is just so tumultuous in their lives. That’s a very advanced, case.

And you don’t want someone new in that level of work quite quite at the beginning. So a lot of times when people take a class with me, they’re like, oh, I’m going to go do this. And I’m like, okay. But pick someone. Might just want to unload a little bit, if a few skeletons in their closet, not a whole closet full of skeletons that are going to bust out and remember it is a Pandora’s box for some people and there’s no closing that box back up once it opens.

And you have to think about these. There’s a lot of ethical issues to think about in terms of when you’re doing this level of work, how do you feel about it? What do you think is right and what is really going to be best for the client? So there’s a

lot of, we spoke about that on the phone. If somebody comes to you for.

10 of the muscular pain and you sense that it’s something deeper, I’m thinking of that story. You can tell them from the book. But do you have to ask permission or in, in your way of looking at things as opposed to just treating what you’re seeing if you see that there’s something much deeper than.

I use, I tell the story of my golfer person who came in and I said, this elbow pain you’re having go, this golfer’s elbow. I, is it possible? It’s emotionally based. And he kept saying no, there’s not. I, my life is great. There’s nothing wrong. I just have this pain. It’s my.

It’s my elbow. I just have this pain and he kept pointing to one of the coast points, large and test at 11. So we went round and we did a lot of treatments and we did . We did cupping. We did all kinds of points. He did everything you can imagine. And even he bless his heart. He came back, he kept coming back and no change, which is usually a good indicator that you need to do this work.

So finally I said to him, look, why don’t we just try. Emotional treatment. Let’s just try it. I didn’t talk to them about the ghost points, cause that’s a little odd and I knew it was a little bit out of his sort of frame of reference in the world, but I didn’t want to throw him off that way.

And honestly it’s just large intestine 11. It’s just another point. So I said, but this point, this point might really help you. And in fact, I think we should do a series of the points I did all of the ghost points with him and I said, let’s do a series of points and just see, okay.

We haven’t gotten it yet and you’re still covered. So let’s try this. So I did. And as soon as I got to large intestine 11, in which I did it over, you can do the points over many treatments if you want. So the day that I got to large intestine. He suddenly out of the blue started telling me about the fact that his secretary who was a longterm, many generational friend of the family embezzled like a hundred thousand dollars or something like that from him.

And it was. And that she was currently in court to be tried and go to jail about it. And so he said, yeah, I guess that is an emotional thing. And the next day he came back, the next day he came back, the pain was. So he became a convert obviously, and we did all of the stages of alchemy together.

And by the time he got to stage six, like all of the money concerns went by the wayside. He did, he got like a million dollar contract. He sold this house. Like all these things were happening and he just couldn’t believe it. It was just like, my lucky stars or something, yeah.

I think that, when you look at, how people are unaware of these things that are lurking deep down and they just think, oh, my wife’s good. My job’s good. They just don’t necessarily think about it, but sometimes there’s a lot there. And so do you have to say I’m doing this like really esoteric ghost point treatment?

No, you don’t want to lie to them. It’s more about what’s the language that they use. So I don’t try to shock people into thinking they’re doing like really weird stuff. I’m just like, what’s the language that helps them understand what you’re going to do. And in fact, there’s a ghost point called ghost market rent 24 and rent 24 is the fact that there’s a gift that you have that needs to get to only certain people in the world.

You don’t want it to go to the people who don’t. You only want it to go to the people who need it. What are the words that are going to best express in a way that person can receive the. If you say a bunch of things that are very alarming to the person who needs the gift, they’re going to be like no.

So you know how I look at it is how about, just using words that the person can take in and can help them understand that. Yes, I need Barden tested 11, I, it doesn’t need to be some big, scary thing. For some people, yeah. Some people come into my clinic and say, I’m feeling. I have a possession and I know it.

And then it’s okay, so we need to use that language. I need to be able to express to them. Yeah, we can work with possession. That’s okay. That’s what these treatments were traditionally for. So of course,

like a literal, energetic. Just that people get so obsessive that it becomes like a possession of thoughts, both versus an entity,


Both. So the ghost points are wonderful for obsessed. In fact, that’s my favorite way to use them is there’s so many of us right now who need ghost points. Pretty much all of us. If you’ve been on this planet for like more than 20 years, it’s pretty likely that you’ve had some events in your life that are continue from the past.

So we that’s obsession. Like we can’t let that. And so that’s what the ghost points for really miraculous for. In addition, if you actually have an entity which is called a gateway to you, I just ghost a good way is a person that maybe died at some point and their spirit didn’t go home, to, to heaven or wherever you want to think.

And it stayed around and then potentially got into someone else. That is the Chinese medicine belief that can happen. And, whether you believe in it or not, doesn’t matter. The fact is that the person exhibits certain qualities that we would associate with that kind of possession.

And so we say there’s emotional possessions, and then there’s these entity possessions. And then we would do different treatments depending on which one you might have. And that’s really something that I. Developed through practice. For example, I still use Worsley’s IDs and EDS treatments, and I love them for particular cases.

And then I like the ghost points for other cases. And they’re all in the same realm, they’re all in this realm of, you’re not totally in charge of yourself, whether you’re obsessed or possessed, you’re not really running the show. And that’s the level of that.

I’ve heard alcoholism described as people especially for people whose personality changes when they drink that they, it’s almost there’s an entity that wants to experience that sensation of drinking or drunkenness.

And so they keep Eh, they exert this control over the person. It’s like somebody sitting on your shoulder and that you really have to, for some people with ringing problems, you have to, do, if it’s not a formal exorcism, somehow you have to deal with that energy.

Yeah. And for alcoholism or any kind of drug problem, I would say that there’s two parts to it.

There’s probably something that is like a ghost, again, it may just be. The drugs influence on you, but something taken over like a possession or an obsession. So there’s that. So I might do the ghost points, but then there’s more to it with any kind of addiction, because there’s often a reason why we got addicted.

And that is where I would do something called the nine heart pains. And the nine heart pains treatment is about loving yourself. And usually what’s behind an addiction is some kind of self-hatred or self-loathing or dissatisfaction with who you are. And so that treatment is usually also necessary and really important.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Cause that’s getting it, and maybe in this case it could be a two-pronged route to the cost, but yeah. To get to the root cause, no matter what.

And a lot of people when they’re just learning about alchemy, they don’t understand. So we can talk about the points.

The points are fascinating. They’re interesting. But to do that treatment, that loving yourself treatment, for example, which I call the nine heart pains treatment, you have to be so present. And so unprotected yourself, vulnerable yourself. So that person. I can now take that in and start to love themselves so that’s a deeper level of motivation.

Like we got through that. Yeah.

Yeah. Oh that’s great. I want to thank you so much. I know, taking time out of your day for this and do it with hard energy and humility. So I’m looking forward, maybe we can do this again in June and. Looking forward to doing more things with you, so fantastic.

Yeah. Anyway, thank you very much everybody. Next week. It’s Matt Callison and Brian Lau talking about they have great things. But we will see you soon and thanks again, the American Acupuncture Council and for all you listening. And I hope you’ll look into this because I think it’s going to make you a better practitioner and a better person, no matter what you’re doing.

So I’m signing out Virginia Doran of