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Acupuncture Sports Medicine with Whitfield Reaves



His experience includes the 1984 Los Angeles Olympic games, as well as numerous track and  fields cycling events nationally for the last four decades, Whitfield is the author of the well-known practitioner’s manual, the acupuncture handbook for sports injuries and pain, which one of the few texts integrating traditional Chinese medicine, acupuncture, orthopedics, and sports medicine.

Click here to download the transcript.

Disclaimer: The following is an actual transcript. We do our best to make sure the transcript is as accurate as possible, however, it may contain spelling or grammatical errors.  Due to the unique language of acupuncture, there will be errors, so we suggest you watch the video while reading the transcript.

Hi, welcome to this week’s American Acupuncture Council’s Live uh, Facebook podcast show. I’m your host Poney Chiang of neuromeridian.net from Toronto Canada. Joining us today is our special guest Whitfield Reaves who is joining us from the central coast of California and he will be relocating into Santa Fe. I’d like to begin by giving you a biographical description of, uh, uh, Dr. Reaves. Uh, Whitfield Reaves is one of the leading practitioners in the field of acupuncture sports medicine. He began clinical practice in 1981 as specialized in the field of orthopedic and sports acupuncture for 40 years. He is licensed in California and his earned doctorate Oriental medicine degree in 1983, his thesis acupuncture and the treatment of common running injuries demonstrated that TCM could address many clinical issues in sports medicine. His experience includes the 1984 Los Angeles Olympic games, as well as numerous tracking fields cycling, either events nationally of the last four decades, we feel is the author of the well-known practitioners manual, the acupuncture handbook for sports injuries and pain, which one of the few texts integrating traditional Chinese medicine, acupuncture, orthopedics, and sports medicine. He’s also the director of the acupuncturist sports medicine apprenticeship program. Thank you very much for joining me. We feel it is an absolute honor,

And it’s a pleasure for me, Poney. It’s great to see you.

Um, I have, um, uh, some questions for you today and, um, uh, I want to keep it pretty relaxed and casual. Um, mostly wanted to hear about your experience, um, in sports medicine and you know, your clinical experience, especially, I was wondering if, um, you can tell us how you ended up specializing in the field of sports medicine.

Well, I started practice in 1981 in February of 1982. I had a marathon runner out for run run in my office and he had Achilles tendonitis and he asked me, you know, can you, can you help? And I said, of course, and of course I had never treated Achilles tendonitis. I had never had a teacher that taught me how to treat the Achilles tendonitis, but that was, you know, I was new in practice. It seemed like the logical thing to say. So I treated them. I was back from China. So I treated them China style, little bit Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday. And then on Sunday he ran the mission Bay marathon. He won the race. I had no idea. I didn’t even know him. You know, like, well, how fast do you run your splits? And what’s your personal best? And what are you training on this? I didn’t know any of that stuff, you know? And so that was Sunday and this was 1982. This was two years before the Olympics in San Diego. This was in San Diego, California, San Diego was filled with Olympians training, trying not to be in Los Angeles, but to be close Monday morning, he brought in busloads of athletes, you know,

From, and

Literally I became a sports acupuncturist overnight and it was of that moment. I didn’t choose it. I was always athletic. I love sports. And it just happened. And really looking back, I didn’t know anything as, you know, the education for graduation to be an Lac in 1981, included nothing very precise about sports acupuncture. So what happened? And I had to teach myself while we went.

That’s a fantastic story. So I guess it’s all, all word of mouth from a high-performance athlete from there. Yeah, that was it. Yeah. Um, well, unfortunately it’s sad to say even to this day, there is still not very more sports medicine curriculum, your average Chinese medicine school. Uh, so, uh, so unfortunately that it has changed, but thankfully we have, uh, mentors and masters such as yourself, which can help us pre-state yet. Now I wanna, um, um, uh, kind of put you on the spot a little bit. Um, I want you to tell us what do you find you get the most consistent results and when it comes to sports medicine now, what do you find? It’s one of the more complicated, more difficult, uh, conditions for you to treat

Well? Um, I would say consistent results for me come with the shoulder, come with tendonitis, infraspinatus, uh, the acromioclavicular joint, much of the shoulder. I find that I can just do really well with the techniques that I’ve learned and, and put together over the years that, I mean, unless you have greater than a 50%, all the way up to a full thickness tear of a, of a rotator cuff tendon, you can get great results in better than any other tradition. I know better than anything PTs can do or, or, or exercise signs or anything. Cause we can get into those discover chromium space area effectively with the needle. So I’d say that’s my favorite.

This has been great and reassuring to hear because for a lot of practitioners, they are afraid of shoulder. I have an associate in my clinic whenever a shoulder case, just like she gives it to me. So I’m very happy to hear that you, um, at that, that is possible to become really, really good to get great results in the shoulder. Cause I know a lot of people lacking that confidence because sorry to interrupt you, please continue

The worst. The things that I don’t like are places that are hard to needle. I don’t like an inguinal hernia or inguinal strain. I don’t like the groin. I don’t like need doctors and I don’t, and I don’t like the armpits, you know, the awareness, you know, I would prefer to send them out for manual therapy. Uh, and so as I would prefer to send out for manual therapy and those are conditions that I think acupuncture does, you can’t get precise access. Cause my needling is all about precision, you know? And you just can’t be precise, kneeling into an armpit, you know, or what have you. So, uh, that being said, there are people who can needle the subscap pretty effectively. I don’t like I don’t teach it. I don’t like it.

So I see. Yeah. Um, well I, I can relate, um, those places definitely are trickier. And of course you just, sometimes you have a deal with like, uh, you know, body hair and things like that. It’s, uh, it can get a little messy. Um, um, and yeah, I, I have found, uh, you know, growing issues to be, uh, relatively difficult to, you know, I’d rather treat, um, at least tendonitis than deal with the growing street. Um, you shared us with it as a great story.

Okay. I got to tell you that you became my hero.

Well that’s

When, what, when I use this technique of using needling small intestine nine, uh, with three-inch deep, deep, you know, all along the act below the axle and I use it for shoulder joint dysfunction, and I never could understand we’re not really going into the infraspinatus or the Terry’s minor. And I would do a corresponding point on the anterior side and I never really knew why they worked cause we weren’t really going into a muscle. And when I was looking at one of your webinars and you showed that branch of the nerve here that goes into the shoulder capsule, can’t remember if it was the anterior, the posterior or both. I went, that’s why it works. It’s a neural explanation and you became my hero. So,

So that means a lot. It means a lot. Uh, I was not expecting that at all. I mean, you know, I, I, you’re definitely a giant the field and I, you know, I, I studied your work very in depth and uh, so it’s actually a great, tremendous provision for me to, to have you on my show today. And, uh, so I really I’m just floored by your, by your generous words. Thank you very much. Um, no. So you shared it with us a really awesome story about how you got into, uh, the field of sports medicine. Would you mind telling us, um, a recent success story to something that was especially memorable that you can, um, chose, inspire our fellow listeners?

I’ll go back to the shoulder. Uh, I had this boy who had had a pretty severe motor vehicle accident 10 years ago, and she’d had a fracture and humorous, uh, up the proximal end and, and, uh, so they dealt with the fracture and, and, but the opposite shoulder had always heard her and it never got any attention because of the fractured side and the opposite shoulder was, uh, the seatbelt and shoulder. So something had happened in there and I, uh, I evaluated it. She had a positive arc of pain, so it with a D AB duction, she had impingement right into here and she was going and she had weakness on resistant AB duction. She had a weak, uh, turned off, right, inhibited supraspinatus with a positive impingement test. So something was going on inside of here, uh, with the 10 men and what have you.

And it just smoldered for 10 years and nobody had paid attention to it. She was leaving in two weeks to go to the Caribbean, uh, to, to, uh, take, uh, uh, uh, to sail. And she was going to be the captain, you know, ahead of the boat. And she needed to get her arms up like this for the wheel and for the lines and all that. And, and, and I said, well, two weeks, you’ve had this for 10 years. So she said, give me everything you got. So I went in at L I 1645 degrees of bleak, lateral and threaded under into the subacromial space needle and kind of toward [inaudible] superficial to the supraspinatus tendon, deep to the S to the boney, you know, a, a chromium. And I felt it going through these layers of scar tissue. I could just feel the springiness and I pushed through, and we, and we had maybe five mechanical strikes of, of scar tissue and fibrosis underneath here. She aggravated for, for seven, eight, nine days. I couldn’t treat her because it was so aggravated. She came back. Finally, we had three days left ago, she had no positive and, uh, impingement test. And the only thing that was left was that her muscle was still inhibited. We needled small intestine, 12, the motor point of, or the muscle belly of the supraspinatus. And she was seated. I got the needle in, into the muscle and, and within five seconds she turned green and

Yeah, that’s definitely a very memorable story.

Oh my God. Well, so we brought her up and we got her all fixed and then I’ve retested, it turned off five seconds of needle into the supers place. It turned on that muscle and she was 100% fixed for the rest of the time that I knew her, you know, and the second treatment was a five second stimulus to small intestine 12 and it just went, wow. So I didn’t need to put that needle in there for 30 minutes and do all this stuff fixed. So that was good.

That’s very, very cool. Um, and I like the fact that you’re not afraid to share some of these, um, slightly, you know, less than perfect stories. Right. She aggravated her, but sometimes as a healing response, she passed out, but you know, things like that happen. Right. So, um, yeah. So all of them are respect to you for, for, um, sharing these, uh, sort of less than perfect stories. But I think, um, mature practitioners without experience, understand that this part that’s part of the, you know, part of the day-to-day bread and butter, and that is, uh, amazing. Okay. And of course she won the race as well. Right? All your patients in races, right.

And it pricked the boat and they didn’t die. If practitioners will take the point of view that there is no such thing as a wrong needle, you might put a needle in and it might not go to where you want it, but it, but it tells you, okay, I need to direct this over here, or I need to needle it over there. Or I’m not on the band. I didn’t get a [inaudible] or whatever your criteria is. If you, if you, if you, there’s no such thing as a bad needle, there’s just some needles that just guide you to a better placement. Then, then you’re not always feeling like you’re a failure. You use those failures to get you more precise and it’s, it’s a much more positive relationship to the experience. So, yeah.

Yeah. What you’re, you’re, you’re saying is very profound when I have to kind of digest it and reflected about it. I’m sure it’s like, it’s not just going over my head right now. And there’s no such thing as, as a wrong needle. I have to, I have to think about that. Uh, but I appreciate that. Um, now I have the, because I, you know, I’m also interested in neurology, neurology and orthopedic aspects, and I encountered this with, um, you know, uh, new learners quite a bit. And some of them are, uh, hesitant to, to embark on a path to become great, uh, good at treating sports issues. Um, and, and it doesn’t have to be sports. It orthopedic issues right now, but it’s she’s athletes, but everybody, you know, um, everybody is, uh, has some repetitive chronic pain and due to repetitive strain. And so there’s sometimes a lot of overlap between the high-performing athlete and your typical sedentary type of desktop, uh, desk workers. Um, but I encountered some people are afraid to go into the field. I wonder if there’s any advice or words of encouragement. Um, I know you didn’t seek out to go into it, but it has turned out to be very rewarding for you, right? Any, any advice about people that are afraid or hesitant about going into this wonderful field?

Well, I, I think being afraid and hesitant is a really very beneficial emotion to take a look at because, because you’re not going to be very good knowing what you probably know already, uh, Meridian acupuncture is of very little value in treating orthopedics. Zang Fu is of almost no value in treating orthopedic and sports injuries. So you have to learn a new headset, a new way to think, you know, about what you’re doing, but it’s all doable. You can learn this. And there are plenty of teachers and you can, you don’t have to have one teacher. You could do a little bit from a number of places, learn from your neuroanatomy, uh, webinars. Learn from me, learn from that. Talisen, there’s just so many ways to get the information. So the, your fear should only be a guide to tell you you’re going to have to work.

You’re going to have to retrain yourself. You know, I had an occupier, I had a patient that came in and she said, I’ve got Achilles tendonitis. My family general practitioner takes care of all our, our coughs and colds takes care of the kids and all that six times nothing happened. So the patient came in, I said, okay, you have Achilles tendonitis. So when you get up in the morning, your Achilles tendon is stiff. And your first steps are difficult that as we know is a keynote symptom of Achilles tendonitis. It has to act that way to be Achilles tendonitis. And he said, Oh, no, I get up in the morning. And I feel great. It’s at the end of the day, that it’s a problem I want, okay, 99% chance, you don’t have Achilles tendonitis. You got the wrong diagnosis. This guy was a 1500 meter masters runner with the most beautiful body, 1500 meter runners just they’re gorgeous.

Right? They’re just beautiful bodies. You know, they’re not so bolt up as a, as a sprint or they’re not so lean as a marathoner. They’re just like, perfect, beautiful. So, so, uh, I did a pinch test of the Achilles and the pain was all the way down at the attachment at the Achilles bursa. He had Achilles bursitis. So I needled, uh, instead of the tendon, I needle down into the area of the burst. I’ve got some techniques for that. He came back five days later, he was 80, 90% better with one treatment. And the first thing he said to me, he said, there’s a difference between a general practitioner and someone who specializes in sports medicine. He just said that to me. And it made me feel so good because that is what we, that’s what we need to communicate. There is a difference. You know, you don’t go have brain surgery from your, your GP.

Doesn’t do brain surgery on you. You go to a brain neurosurgeon, you know, so the specialty is a beautiful, wonderful specialty. And if you’re drawn to it, you got to learn that you got to learn the language and you have to understand there’s orthopedics, but the next step over is their sports acupuncture. When you’re getting into sports medicine, you have to learn about the psyche of the patient, of the athlete. You have to have more, more attention to how they think and feel, and of course how they train, whereas with the PDX, you can get away without knowing a lot of that stuff. But there are similar the basis of orthopedic and sports acupuncture. The basis is similar with that emphasis of really trying to figure out what makes them do this and why are they doing this? And so, but it’s a wonderful field and it’s totally open. There’s no obstructions, there’s no barriers to entering. You can, you can, you can do fantastically in this field. So you’re welcome to come and join.

Thank you very much for that. Um, just to finish off with our interview session today, I was wondering if you can share with us your favorite acupuncture point, if there is possible to identify one of your favorite, one of your favorite points and how would you, uh, how do you recommend that we use it? Well, I think, you know what I’m going to say.

My favorite point, if I had only one point to do would be the extraordinary point. Jen claw, J I a N qua qua, uh, the claw, the is the, is the thigh and the glutes, the lower mid section five of the bodies, not just the thigh, but it’s, you know, probably includes the, the gluteus Maximus and all of that gen means strengthened. So the translation is strengthened the thigh or strengthened the block. Uh, this is in the muscle belly of the gluteus, medius it from the greater trocanter halfway, but from the greater toe canter to the iliac crest, along the shallow young line, take the mid axillary line, go straight on down to the Raider trow candor halfway between there and the iliac crest is Jen qua it’s post Steria to gallbladder 29. And it’s right on the, in the muscle belly of the gluteus medius, gluteus medius is what stabilizes the pelvis to keep that tilt from going and is crucial to establishing order in the lumbar vertebral segments of the body.

So that when I treat low back pain, I don’t treat Thai young. I treat shaliach. I go in from the side and treat the gluteus medius and deeper, of course, it’s the gluteus minimus. So you have two muscles with differing functions to get, bring about stability in the pelvis, so that the rest of the pair of spinal muscles have some consistency in their experience. They don’t have to be compensating because everything is moving because the gluteus medius inhibits from prolonged sitting. And we all sit too long for reflection along city, the gluteus medius, no matter how big and health, how well, you know, function, this is inhibits. And that big muscle just turns off and all you gotta do is needle it, turn it back on everything changes. So that’s my absolute favorite point that would, that would go up and affect everything up to the shoulder, posture, the neck, it wouldn’t go down and affect heel strike. And, and your whole cadence as a Walker or runner could theoretically correct everything from, from plantar fasciitis up to, you know, neck and head pain. I don’t know.

Wonderful. I didn’t know. I knew it was one of your favorite points, but I didn’t know it was such bright applications for it and the entire spine as well. And it makes a lot of sense that it, the smile has to compensate, you know, that you can have bad problems, they problems, right. And that all comes from having a nice stable, um, pelvis, pelvic bone. Cause after all the, where does the vertebrae sit on this, this other sacrum, which is rooted in the pelvis. Right. Wonderful. Um, so unfortunately this is, um, uh, we’re coming to the end to our, about our interview here. I was wondering if, um, people wanted to learn more about your curriculum or learn or study with you, um, are there some resources or some new information, a website or something that they can do to get in touch, get in touch with you?

Probably the easiest thing to do is go to my website, which is my name, Whitfield Reaves, not com. You got to make sure you spell it right. Wood field.com. There you can order my book there. You can see the links to my most current webinar program called mastering the treatment of injury and pain. It’s 40 hours. I just completed this right before the lockdown last year of all, it’s just all of my work put in 40 hours of webinars. Uh, and we also have some three hour modules of little special segments or portions of the body that we’re teaching still during this COVID era. Uh, and we’re actually starting to schedule some live stuff in the fall. So you can find all of that on my website, on the calendar page. Um, and, uh, and you can email me if you’ve got questions, email me, there’s a contact button. I’m happy to, to give you advice if you need some advice on how to proceed. So, yeah.

Okay. Thank you so much with, um, unfortunately I wish we have more time. I’m sure we can just talk on for hours and I can just, I mean, for me, I guess I can just listen to your stories for hours. Okay. Um, but, uh, I’ve always, that’s all the time you have today. So I thank you very much for joining, joining us. I think all the listeners for joining with joining us today, and don’t forget to join us next week posted next week is Chen Yen. And I’m sure she’ll have some wonderful information to share with everybody. Thank you and have a lovely rest of the weekend

Seal. Thanks for listening.


Nanopuncture with Clayton Shiu & Poney Chiang


Hi, my name is Poney Chiang from Toronto Canada. I met my opinion education provider from new everyday.net. Welcome to today’s live Facebook broadcast for American Acupuncture Council. My guest today is Dr. Clayton Shiu from New York City…

Click here to download the transcript.

Disclaimer: The following is an actual transcript. We do our best to make sure the transcript is as accurate as possible, however, it may contain spelling or grammatical errors.  Due to the unique language of acupuncture, there will be errors, so we suggest you watch the video while reading the transcript.

…Creighton and a bachelor of science in human physiology from Boston university and a master of science with traditional Oriental medicine from psychology, went into medicine. He received his PhD in acupuncture, and moxibustion from the Tangi university of treaters, Chinese medicine, and completed as well as residency at the first teaching hospital of Tangie. Any of you that are joining us today. My note that this is the hospital in which the movie 9,000 year old takes place, and the Clayton were close to you with their father and modern acupuncture. His name is Dr. [inaudible], who is the inventor of a neuro rehabilitation medical. She now KHL, um, Dr. Hsu is the creator of the narrow punches stroke and neuro logical religious rehabilitation system that he teaches across the country. Dr. Sushi. I mean the, uh, the father of modern acupuncture, invited Clayton to present his breakthrough research and then a punctured system at the 2020 international acupuncture conference in change in China, Clayton holds faculty positions at the American Academy of Chinese culture, health sciences in Oakland, and at the American college of nutrition and Chinese medicine, teaching short rehabilitation courses for their doctoral program. Thank you for joining us today. Clayton, how are you doing?

I wanted that. I’m sorry. I blanked out a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. Um, okay. Uh, would you mind telling us about your experience doing a PhD in tangy or what was that like?

Oh, okay. Um, so my time in tangent was about three and a half years approximately. Um, it was a great experience. Um, it was, it’s a hospital facility that’s quite large. Uh, they treated about 10,000 stroke patients a day, um, as a whole. So we were able to really see all kinds of different kinds of cases. Um, everything from like, like full paralysis of the patient to seeing like a nasal tube being put into, um, the patient to help them feed and also seeing how acupuncture can even take a nasal tube out eventually and give the person the ability to swallow and chew food again. Um, so because of all the different wards and different buildings, um, you could find almost any kind of case, um, and kind of track how acupuncture over the long-term can actually treat and help the patient. And I think that was a major advantage of being in that environment, whereas quite often in our own private practices in the States, um, possibly even Canada too, like, you know, maybe we might see a patient for one week or two months at the most.

Um, and it’s not treating like these kinds of severe kind of cases, but in this case, at the tangent first teaching hospital, we can track patients over six months, eight months a year, et cetera. So it’s, it’s, it gives you a wider, bigger perspective on, on an arc of how a person can heal versus, you know, when we have a private practice, we think, Oh man, okay, maybe in six sessions, something should happen or not. And so my, my perspective on time and also, uh, frequency for treating, uh, certain neurological disorders changed a lot after being there. So

Yeah, it must have been great to be able to see it sort of firsthand the CMB applied every day. Um, I would imagine PA patients are admitted to the hospital and begin acupuncture immediately, right? There’s no waiting for six weeks before they’re discharged from our Western hospital before they come to our private practice. Right. And they’re doing acupuncture every day, maybe several times a day.

Yeah. They, um, at a hospital like this for probably getting treated like at least two sessions of acupuncture, two more sessions of physical therapy, moxa, um, you know, Twain off like, uh, herbal medicines, you know? So, so in a sense you’re getting treated like six to nine times a day, or you’re very active. You’re not very complacent basically. And I like the rooms are, uh, in certain words they’re very big. So like, you know, Chinese are very family oriented, so there’s there’s room for your whole family to kind of sit there, you know, and be loved. So it was very nice to see that too. Um, but yeah, and it was, it was great to see like different, um, like the different directors and specialists in each ward, they were good at different things. So you could, you could pick their brain and ask them, like, how would they needle something? Or why is, why are you using, you know, spleen six this way versus that way, you know, et cetera. Cause that’s a lot of the devil’s in the details, you know? So, um, you puncture, so yeah.

Was like amazing. I’m jealous. Okay. Um, so, um, tell us about your style called nano puncture. What if it’s possible in a few words or a few sentences to give us a nutshell one nano?

Sure. Um, so after I returned to the States, uh, um, I want to give the system of what I was doing. Um, like a kind of a different name. One is it’s a play on words because nano is like the smallest measurable unit in most cases. So it was a play on words of Tai Chi, right? Because Tigie could refer to the smallest or the largest, um, kind of measurement. So nano is referring to like that we’re simply using like needles and the acupuncture, but we can have a large effect to treat like paralysis or treats speech issues or treat, you know, pretty miraculous things. Whenever you see like acupuncture do a very spontaneous kind of changes someone that’s still fascinates me today. Um, and then the other word origin of nano puncture was I was, I was treating a very famous, uh, prostate surgeon and he didn’t believe in acupuncture at first.

And so when I treated him, he could feel me manipulate the needle and I basically converted him. And so, because he was doing sensories, right. He wouldn’t, he wouldn’t need to like the best deference, which was a very small right on a tissue. So he was the first surgeon that kind of related to what needles can do because this needles are a little bit smaller than ours, you know? And we were saying that, Oh, the instrument’s so small. It’s like, it’s like, nano-sized right. So, so that’s how we came up with the word nano puncture. So, so in a sense, nano is like the smallest, smallest unit. Right. Which is like the acupuncture versus reviewing like a major machine or a major, you know, device like a gamma, like a gamma Ray or something like that. So, you know, we’re using just the needles, we’re able to get like an amazing result. So yeah. So that’s that for that. Um, and then mix them with a training from can Jen has just 20 years of like sports medicine and orthopedic experience and stuff like that. So, so we gave it that label. Yeah.

Actually I’m glad you brought up like gamma knife and things like that. Because as part of the material that you teach you to teach something called photo biomodulation and I take it, that sounds a lot like star Trek to me, which sounds really exciting. I’m nothing wrong against dark trade. I’m a trache. So tell me about what that is. Sounds like full-time for Peters.


Right. The photo biomodulation or, um, uh, could you repeat your question one time? Cause the, uh, the signal got a little slow.

Tell us what photobiomodulation is that, are you teaching your training program?

Sure. So, uh, what we like to do is even though we’re using, um, or using acupuncture and traditional needle manipulation methods, I like to combine modern technology with what I do. Um, it’s kind of the yin and yang to the practice. Uh, I do like photo biomodulation a lot because what, what sunlight is the chlorophyll red light is to the mitochondria of your cells. And so it’ll actually reset the P and bring energy and create energy into the cells of your body. So interestingly enough, for, for, for us as humans or animals, or, uh, or what have you like, we, we have tissue, right. And if you take this flash like off my cell phone, right. So this is every color in the spectrum, but if I put my finger over it, okay. Like this, right. You see a red light. Okay. And the reason why is that wavelength is about 610, uh, nanometer wavelength.

And that is the wavelength of the red wavelength color. And the red wavelength color is the color of light that can penetrate through our flesh into our muscles, which is what photo biomodulation uses. So that red light okay. Passes through human flesh into the tissue, into the cells. And so with photobiomodulation you can now pulse the frequency to adjust to things like gamma, brainwaves, or Delta brainwaves. You can, you can actually, um, increase the wavelength up to 700, 800 or near infrared light. Um, and when you do that, the neuron for infrared light spectrum will actually kill the viruses, including COVID. That’s why a lot of our devices today have like, you know, the cell phone, cleaner box or the air cleaner with the UV light, you know, and that’s, and that’s not a new thing. Anyone that has surgery before they do any surgery or down to work, they always flash a UV light device to actually prepare the room.


Um, so that’s, so what we do is we use photobiomodulation, we will put it in a tissue that’s maybe we knew we activated the nerves of that body, but we know the tissue isn’t is still weak and fatigued, so we can use red light that way. Um, there’s also devices that go into the nose, right. Or into the tongue area. And what happens is because of the cranial nerves, like cranium, or, um, like the old factory created owner and the nerves attached to the hypoglossal, you can simulate that rather than help, but speech and also with memory. So for like all commerce patients, there’s a great device called the V light, which there’ll be like a headset and like a little stimulator that stimulates gamma, um, for the speech, right. Gamma, wavelength, and then a nose clip. And the clip will shine into that, that area of the factoring of that has like thousands of little Villa.

Okay. And when I’ve, when I worked for end, that it’s actually helped patients, who’ve had like, uh, dementia and memory fog where actually seen noticeable improvements, you know, and that’s a great device it’s shining off, you know, a red light wavelength, um, up through the nose. So, so the great thing about, yeah, and it works great with acupuncture. So like, whereas acupuncture can move CHAM, blood, right. Things like red light and OXA charges, the blood gives it energy. Do you see what I mean? So one thing creates like the flow, the other thing creates, like in a sense, um, like March she, for that blood or for that tissue. So

Do you have a preference of doing, uh photobiomodulation first and then acupuncture or vice versa? Do you do them at the same session or the patients come in separate sessions for different modalities?

Oh, no. I always do acupuncture and like a full neurological assessment first, and then we decide if they need, um, photobiomodulation um, and the, you know, the thing is, is even though it’s great for like, if you have lower back pain, if what I can tell you is that if you have more of a pinpoint lower back pain, or if, you know, it’s affecting the disc, I would use acupuncture first and then do the photo biomodulation to follow up, uh, because acupuncture is still extremely precise. Um, and then once you get that flow, it’s good to have that. So we have like, would you have a light bag? We have the region pod at my office. Um, so we, what we did was created like a rejuvenation studio. So we may have, like, we may have taken acupuncture to a certain extent. And then we feel like, okay, we know everything is rewired and plugged in together, but you know, the power sources and high enough still send them a sample. Yeah. Like let’s, let’s use, use the red light or let’s use like give the person energy, you know? So then we may say, try to do like 10 sessions of red light and then come back. We’re gonna reevaluate. Um, yeah. And, and the interesting thing is, uh, photobiomodulation will actually work on the digestive system. It’s not just for muscles and tendons. Um, we’ve had people had, um, digestive issues and swelling or water retention and a lot of dampness and the red light actually works. Photobiomodulation works great for that. So

Cool. And I like your analogy. Um, you have to make sure things are connected properly first, before you try to turn off the power, right. There’s no point trying to power. It is not connected. So to that, presumably through acupuncture, we’re reducing the resistance of the, um, of the nervous system. So now we have greater flow, right. That’s resistance or more or more conductivity. Now, once that groundwork is done, now it’s ready to actually get some sort of tonification from the F for the red light. Then did I read, I can actually go somewhere and do do the things that it’s intended to do to help you understand. Thank you very much for that. Um, can you tell us, you know, um, how, how can acupunctures, um, benefit from learning from you or learning from, um, nano puncture?

Um, well, I think what I do is we do give like neuro anatomy lessons and education on what a stroke concussion or traumatic brain injury is. But what we do is I set them a [inaudible] program that I did from 10 and two different modules. So, um, what we’d like to do is bring back a lot of the classical knee manipulation, um, so that, you know, you can, you can manipulate something with your needle and also get like the different, like, effects that I learned through [inaudible] or, you know, if we need like heart one, we, you can feel, and you can even direct it into each finger, like the sensation of, of the nerve and stuff like that. So we train you on how to do that. Um, so we might take a section of the body, like the arm or the leg, and for one weekend for about 16 hours or, you know, more you’re constantly practicing and needling mix them with, um, I’ll invite, like just, I’ve never met and I’ll demonstrate how I would approach them in front of the crowd, so of acupuncturists.

So we, we treat them together, but I like to, I think there’s a lot of little details, um, even just, even just down to positioning. Right. And I know like your work is amazing with, within the Academy and dissection and stuff, and, you know, if you don’t position the body correctly, we can’t needle. Right. We can’t get into that sweet spot to manipulate the Meridian and the nerves and the tissue. So it’s, uh, I think that takes like, almost like, uh, like committed, coordinated group practice. It’s like, it’s like when you join a, like a tiger group and everyone’s trying to do form at the same time, you know, and right. One bird was done in one minute, the other people are done in 10 minutes and you, you tend to reverberate together. And so you can feel, you know, the training and what you have to do to the concussion part of it. And then there’s the hands-on part that I think makes our modules special. Yeah.

Can you share with us like a very memorable patient or a case where you, you know, um, feel that you couldn’t have helped them as well as you could, or her as well as you could have had, you know, incorporated let’s put about modulation or Chanel K char or something, some of the things that you’ve learned in China, or some of the things that you discover yourself, you know, private practice,

You mean, like was difficult. And then when we tried that technique and it made it work or something like that, like yeah.

Something inspiring for us. I never get tired of listening to those success stories.

Right, right. Um, yeah, I think, I think, uh, so there, there is quite a few patients, um, that, like, one of my things I left to do is, uh, speech and speech paralysis and dysphasia. And we, you know, we had a patient who, uh, had a very severe stroke about three years ago. And, um, he was, you know, he had salivation problems. It has salivation problems, he’s in a wheelchair. And, um, it’s a difficult case for anybody to treat basically. But at the same time, like just kept putting in different points, like non [inaudible] and angled correctly, like GB, Toni, and long glues, like [inaudible] and stuff now. And when it came close to, uh, to the election time, right. And this patient is usually he always like this, he’s kind of like his eyes are closed, you know, he’s very quiet. Right. And we would treat them twice a day. Like he stays at my office all day and we treat them twice with about a three hour window in between. But about like four weeks ago, when it came close to election time, you know, we asked them who, who we should vote, or, you know, he’s lying there and just goes by them like that, you know, like that,

Yeah. It was like the first word he spoken in our office that was like, you know, cause, uh, you know, it wasn’t a yes or no question. It was something you had to think about. And then later it kept going and we asked him, well, who should run for president? And he said, Dr. Shoe. Right. So we were like, like he could cognitively had a sense of humor. Right. Like he could put that together. So after that, and my staff were like, we just have mocks on the neck. We kept doing all this stuff in the brainstem. And, um, yeah. So it was, uh, it was pretty cool. So it was, you know,

Maybe, maybe you can sit in a nomination for you to become the surgeon general [inaudible] yeah.


Would you be able, um, to give us some tips or advisors, some simple technique or insight, uh, from your unconscious system so that maybe we can start applying a little bit. I know it’s not something that we can really learn over a webinar, but if, is there anything you can, any of tips and advice at the thing I, myself and our viewers would be very appreciated.

Yeah. I think, um, no matter which system you’re using, um, one of the things like Dr. Sherwin says is, uh, he was famous for, for using the principle or creating the principle of quantitative manipulation. Right. So, and what that means is is every 10 minutes we would do a technique like Sparrow pecking, or Phoenix flapping their wings on plants like neg Juan or Sonia and chow because he knew, and he could tell that like every 10 minutes you have to re stimulate the nerves. So my advice is like, it doesn’t matter if you’re using [inaudible] or not whatever technique it is. Like I would go back, we’ll just leave your patient there for like 30 minutes or 40 minutes or whatever, like every 10 minutes go back and just touch that needle. Uh, give it a little adjustment, no matter what your technique is, you know?

And then you’re going to see like a more drastic change in results because, because maybe the body responded that it plateaus and during the session, you can peak it back up. You know? So that’s something that he was very strict about. Like everybody knew that in this hospital, it was very interesting. And I knew that when, uh, one of the hospitals only had 200 beds, he would, like, I heard he would run out of the office, make sure someone manipulated the needle correctly, then run back to his, like, you know, to his conference. He was very strict on that. Yeah. And then also just trying to take care of your hands, whether you’re practicing Tai-Chi or sword work or something, like treat your hands, like they’re gold because, uh, you know, they’re your instruments, right? So you want to make sure you’re always like, you know, don’t, don’t just neglect them and, you know, leave them on a table somewhere, but treat your hand really good and keep them like help because when they’re helping and supple and soft, you can, you can get better results too. You can be more sensitive and it increases your, your tingly, which is like your listening skill, like the needle. So yeah.

To touch detention, the, uh, advisor about, um, sort of re stimulating the needles every 10 minutes or so she didn’t give us an idea, like what they’re doing, kind of w or in your practice that you saw, um, like how long was the average, uh, stroke. We have acupuncture session. And then within that timeframe, how many times are they going into re-stimulate?

Yeah, so, uh, I would say like the, the average time takes about probably about 45 minutes to like an hour for a stroke patient, because you’re going to treat the front for about 20 minutes and then the back for 20 minutes or a specific part of the body. Right. And then you should be like every 10, 15 minutes, you should be going back to manipulate the session. We usually say that like, one course of treatment would be 30 sessions at that hospital. Right. But a lot of patients in the word I was in, um, it was like an international word. So like patients who were living in that hospital for, for like several months, like they, they were getting in a special program, you know? Um, so, you know, in terms of like, it was very congruent to what we say about neuroplasticity. If you think about like, you know, we, usually we say, right, but if, if something’s pretty severely damaged, like if there is damage to the brain STEM or to some of the upper motor tracks, you know, you’re looking at 20 or 30 sessions.

And I think the important thing why I’m glad you’re a teacher and, and other of our peers are teaching, this is because, you know, this isn’t like spraining an ankle new, you need to explain to the patient a care plan and figure out, um, how long, and realistically it would take for them to recover this. That’s not going to be done in five sessions and five quick sessions, like, you know, um, so it’s important that you can guide and manage the patient on the law through that process. So, yeah, I mean, one of the inspirational stories is, uh, I want to add to that is like, for instance, uh, there’s a patient, um, and his name is Jim Wharton and he was the, he was the creator of active, isolated stretching. He’s he coached many Olympic athletes and runners. Right. And he had a stroke, uh, uh, about a year ago.

And he came into my office about a month after the stroke. And he was, he completely could not move. Um, you know, he had a gastric tube and everything he couldn’t speak. And I can tell you that one year later. Okay. Because it was a very severe stroke. Uh, well, within six months he was already eating without a gastric tube and he’s a healthy guy to amazing specimen person. But one year later he was riding the train, the subway train, and he gave me a stretching session. So he treated me instead of I treated him. Right. And it was amazing. Yes. But realistically,

Yeah, yeah. A year is nothing compared to having to get your life back. Right. I mean, it’s all, it’s all relative. Um, right. Thank you very much for sharing your experience with us about an Ana puncture before, if our listeners and viewers find out more information, do you have a website or some social media information? You can let us know so we can get in touch with you or get more information about your upcoming training sessions.

Sure. Um, it’s an amateur seminar doc. Um, and my clinic website is, is, uh, the shoe clinic.com too. So, uh, we’re gonna, we’re going to create some, um, new, online format so people can start learning the different modules. I’m teaching again. Um, cause of Irvin can’t really, um, easily meet face to face, but we’re going to create, we’re going to do the academic portions. And then later we’re going to have like group, uh, when everything is more in control, we’ll have like a group practical time too. So, but yeah, we plan to put a lot of the modules. And so it’ll be like upper extremity, lower extremity, speech paralysis, uh, concussion, like, um, but the first one will probably be the base. We call it the, the, the classical, uh, points, or I actually caught them. They’re all flash. So, because I believe the Chenelle

Cocho points, everyone should know and know how to manipulate so that at least you have something in your toolbox, but yeah. So we’re going to have that coming up in 2021. So yeah, very excited. Thank you very much, Clayton. It’s been awesome talking to you and for our listeners, don’t forget to join us next week. We’re going to have another exciting show with my cohost, Virginia Doran. Thank you. And take care.

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Yuan Qi Acupuncture – Poney Chiang & Suzanne Robidoux


Hi, good afternoon. My name is Poney Chiang. I’m one of your hosts for American Acupuncture’s live Facebook podcast show today. My special guest is Suzanne Robidoux, who is joining us all the way from Nanjing China. Dr. Susan Robidoux has spent over 20 years in China sharing when, after completing her master’s degree in us and, uh, went to China to learn Chinese language and martial arts, but ended up there until today.

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Disclaimer: The following is an actual transcript. We do our best to make sure the transcript is as accurate as possible, however, it may contain spelling or grammatical errors.  Due to the unique language of acupuncture, there will be errors, so we suggest you watch the video while reading the transcript.

And, uh, she was holding a five different distinct lineages of Chinese medicine and martial arts. We should continues to teach and practice. Do you have a PhD in nine gene? She practiced at the neurological hospital treating diseases such as major depressive disorders and post-stroke paralysis after completing her PhD. She spent the following year. So the classical medical systems from various Chinese medical masters to learn their techniques. She combines classical acupuncture, classical moxibustion gene Fong, which is the type of classical herbal system with diet, lifestyle and internal arts and teaching. She’s also the author of three different textbooks on acupuncture, Costco, hers, and Bhagwan thank you for joining us today, Suzanne.

Thank you for having me pony.

I would like to, uh, think you have brains today about, uh, a form of, uh, acupuncture to call it UN she acupuncture that I’d been hearing here in ravey views on, um, could you tell us a little about, about it? What is it, um, how is different from our standard TCM type of acupuncture?

Hmm. Yeah, it’d be my pleasure. Um, UNC acupuncture is a, it’s a classical type of acupuncture. Uh it’s based on the teachings of [inaudible] and the teachings of [inaudible] and from these teachings and from the information of [inaudible] and send you a gig, uh, masters simply, um, and other masters in Taiwan build a system, uh, based on using the cheesy that we have the essence T that we have in our dantian and use that she, in order to balance, um, the channels in our bodies in order to remove obstacles, to increase the flow, uh, but also to increase the general, uh, health care of our body. Um, the main goal of, of the system is using 60 points, 60 very specific points. Uh, we have a very specific needling technique as well, that, um, is used on all the points and using this technique, using these very specific points, we’re able to use the essence T to balance the body now by balancing the body, we increase healthcare. Uh, we improve vision improved memory, but most importantly, of course, it’s, it’s mainly used for quick pain relief. So pain relief relief on numbness, um, blockages, and sometimes I’ve used it also for, um, lack of motility of, of limbs, like a trip for trigger finger or frozen shoulder.

Interesting. Um, are there specific type of patient demographic that would best benefit from this or, or certain types of conditions you in your mind you go, Oh, this is something that you mentioned is absolutely going to be a great for or is broadly approvable.

Yes. The, the, the best patients for this technique is patients that are suffering from chronic pain. Uh, it’s good for many things. We also use it for internal organ, um, disorders, but it’s really best to use when people are suffering from chronic pain. Uh, the best is with when people are suffering from chronic pain, that is result of either a surgery or trauma, then you do think the dantian, she will be a lot more effective, a lot quicker. And within one to three treatments, we can get a great hold on that level of pain.

Okay. Um, so I’m understanding that the system has 60 different points and I’m imagining that it’s a complete different than your quote unquote standard acupuncture points, or are they, they overlaps, okay. They’re different. Okay.

Points that overlap, uh, in terms of location. But interestingly enough is that these points are on different channels. Then what the, the classical points that we learn in TCM. So, um, they are completely different than, than our TCM points location.

Yeah. So they’re not, it’s not, uh, you have the 12 Meridian base. These are extra, like extra, extra ordinary points. They’re outside the channel system.

No, actually they are on the channel. So the, our, our system is based, uh, the, it combines the channel theory combines, um, the tendon or muscular system. And, um, the points are on the channels on the same line, but different, um, locations.

Okay. And, um, um, would you be able to share with us like a clinical story or something that’s memorable, maybe perhaps with something that wowed you when you’re first learning this, how did you first hear about this? Something that will help us, uh, appreciate from your personal experience? Um, that was really, really memorable for you?

Um, sure. Um, I think we all learn acupuncture because we like helping people and release their suffering. And, um, what’s great about the system is we’re able to, uh, get a feedback from our patient. And that’s part of the treatment protocol with the system. You, you put one needle and then you wait for the feedback of the patient and that’s what guides you actually to, uh, know how to continue the treatment protocol. And so, um, I can share maybe one, one of the, uh, first case when I first started teaching the system, I was in Denmark and, uh, one of the participants, one of the acupuncturist was there and she volunteered, uh, to receive a treatment. And she had actually gone to learn acupuncture because of her chronic pain and what had happened to her. She went hiking when she was in her teens and her friend.

Uh, she was a very small lady and her friend had fallen on her and her and her backpack crushed her upper back. And since that moment, she had been suffering from a chronic, upper back pain and tension. It, it affected everything. It affected migraines, dizziness, uh, it caused her posture to be, uh, very stiff and abnormal. And through all the treatments she got through all acupuncture school, nothing released this pain. And by, by needling her according to UN she and needling the corresponding channels that were blocked, um, we were, I was able to needle her arm and follow the pain through, and the pain really left, uh, chronologically backwards, according to how the pain evolved in her body. And after five needles on her, um, arm on her lower arm, uh, her pain was completely gone. And so I saw her the day, the next day, and two days later, and her pain was still gone. Um, and when I came back to Denmark to teach the next year, the pain was still gone. So it is always a pleasure to be able to, to practice you. And she, um, patients that are suffering so much for so many years and just release their pain just by their, their energies, balancing the channels, and also engaging that, that lower dantian that we have.

That’s a great story.

It’s a great pleasure.

Um, so I’m hearing that you’re needling, uh, uh, on the arm is UN Xi acupuncture a form of, uh, more of a distal style acupuncture. The, these points are, uh, in the extremities.

That’s right. So the 60 points are on the extremities. However, what we’re using is that she in a low, lower dantian, and so we’re by using this, the Sochi, so a need, um, points below the elbows and the knees, um, is activating the chin, the lower dantian. And if it isn’t, then we have another technique in the lower dantian to, to fortify and activate.

Hmm. Sounds like it’s kind of a very, um, uh, uh, uh, deep rooted system that draws on like the venture level to, to, uh, to enable healing, I guess usually when we need a, would probably just, um, maybe working on the year in a way, not as deep as, uh, as, uh, as the name of the system implies. Um, I think it’s great that it’s a, uh, distal based system. There are obviously certain limitations or some, um, certain patients, um, you know, may or may not be, um, may have access to the torso, right. Uh, bedridden patients or wheelchair patients, you know, and also even like people that practice more and maybe perhaps communities that acupuncture where, um, you know, uh, they are more of a seated. And so, um, access to below the elbows and knees are more practical. So I think this might, might be, uh, um, very palatable to a lot of practitioners out there that, um, that this is consistent with their style of practice. Um, I know this is a very complicated system, uh, when us coming, but it’s a sophisticated system. And, um, um, but do you think it’s possible, there’s some sort of simple things that you might be able to share with us? Uh, like maybe a simple diagnostic or simple palpation, single needling thing, if it’s possible, if it’s not let me know, um, just to maybe let our viewers, uh, experiment with it themselves or try on a patient that’s, they’re having some clinical challenges with, is that something that’s possible to share?

Well, okay. So first I agree completely with you. It’s a system, first of all, that’s very easy to use if you’re using a community acupuncture or if you’re treating, um, paralyzed patients, you’re, you have access to the Bo the limbs of the body, a lot easier than the trunk or the back of the, so it’s very easy to use, and it’s fairly easy to learn since it only takes a few hours, you know, the 60 points. Um, and, and then you’re able to, to practice, once you learn the location, you’re able to practice the depth of the points, um, what I would be able to share. Um, it’s, it’s not that I don’t want to share is just that it’s, it’s really a complete system within itself. And, um, after learning the location, you have to learn the needling technique. And then, then the treatment protocol, which is very important that if you don’t follow the steps, then you might, um, cause further blockage within the patient’s body.

And so, um, what I could learn, what I could speak about is maybe the palpation technique, um, within the system we, for, for the earth points, uh, as we use a lot of the five element points, um, the earth points are always in between, um, the wrists and elbows. And so, and there are a long, uh, the channels. However, the locations of the channel in the classical texts, uh, are really, really close to the bone. And so this needling approach will be a lot about palpating along the area of the bone and developing that sensation or that sensitivity that, that we can develop as acupuncturist, not on the chin level, but also at a, as a channel level and really feel the condition of the channel. And once we can feel the channel on the side of the bone, then we’re able to really power pate where the blockage is. And once that happens, then we know exactly the location of the point. One of the things that my, my teacher always says is if, if we’re not feeling the entrance of the needle before we need, or we can’t needle the point. So basically it, what he meant by that is he, we really need to feel the entrance, uh, within the channel. So the, the fine, um, entry point before we actually use our needles.

Okay. Um, can you talk about, um, like, just give us an example of one point and then describe how describe the technique that would be used for that point. Are there different techniques for different points or, um, or is it a similar technique applied to the 60 points?

Um, the needling technique that we applied to the points is very similar. Um, we must reach the needle tip within the channel, feel the channel cheat, and then, uh, we lift the needle very slightly, give it space. And after that, we turn counter clockwise and counterclockwise, we’ll the flow of the cheek balancing the body, um, in terms of points. Sure. Um, what, what I thought of when you asked that question, as I thought about my brother-in-law, uh, that was suffering from very chronic elbow pain. So the, uh, entrance, so the heart channel, um, at the elbow was, was hurting him so severely that nobody could even palpated. It woke him up at night. It was very severe. And this occurred after a very severe disappointment and separation in his relationship. And, uh, he tried everything to get rid of it, but nothing was, was useful.

And so if we look, um, at this channel for us, the elbow, uh, the map that I have behind me separates the body in the five elements. So our whole body is not only separated in channels. It’s also separated in, in elements. And so as, uh, the elbow is the element of water I needed to reach, uh, on the corresponding channel. Uh, so the heart channel being shalion, uh, the corresponding channel being, um, shall young. So I needed the water point of shall yang on, um, on the opposite side. Uh, and as soon as I needled this pain, he felt a shooting pain down his arm, and I just stimulated the needle. So, um, it’s very close to gallbladder 34 area, but it, it isn’t. So once we learned the location of the points, uh, you’ll know exactly where they are. And as soon as the pain was gone, then that blockage had left through, uh, the heart channel. And, uh, the pain was completely gone. Now, this was about five years ago and the pain hasn’t returned since

Hmm. That’s really useful. Um, and then it’s a great success story. And also for me, I think, I think for the other viewers too, uh, gives us a sense of how you, um, are attempting to balance the energy and the thought process does involve, uh, so that that’s, uh, I think, uh, uh, thirsty people are starting to have a better understanding of, um, the, um, the, the, the process, um, of, uh, of the strategies that acupuncture. Can you tell us, um, how will learning, does wrenches of acupuncture compliment, uh, TCM staff acupuncture, or compliment people that do more to be used to stash score, stab acupuncture would do, is it something that they can super impose? Something they, uh, um, I don’t know, like, uh, sequences, uh, how do you have any thoughts on that?

Yes. Um, this, again, she acupuncture is used, it takes about 10 to 15 minutes, uh, in terms of using these points, we only use about one to five of these points, and afterwards, of course, we can integrate any kind of TCM acupuncture treatment that we would normally do with our patients. And so this, this treatment, we usually do it in the beginning to release that, that acute type of pain or the acute excessive blockage in the body. And afterward, it just makes the TCM treatment more successful or more acceptable and peaceful for the patient. Or we could use it at the end of our treatment when, when we’ve completed our treatment, but there’s still a nagging pain somewhere in the back or, uh, in, in the neck. And then we can use one or two points release that pressure release that blockage, and then the patient goes home without any nagging pain or residual pain. So this system is very well combined with any other acupuncture techniques that, that somebody might do. I always use it with TCM points. I use it with, um, scalp acupuncture and, and even with moxa, it integrates very well. It’s a, it’s a very successful tool to have as an acupuncturist.

Yeah. Sounds, sounds like it’s very versatile. Uh, um, obviously the fact that it’s, uh, in the extremities, um, it wouldn’t, it wouldn’t interfere with, uh, you know, Microsystems on the scalp or on a year and things like that. Um, thank you very much for giving us a little bit of a introduction. Are you, and shacupuncture puncher today. Um, if we want to learn more about your end sheet, are there some resources that you can recommend, Suzanne?

Um, yes. So unfortunately there isn’t any English publication right now, but we do teach the course online regularly. Um, it’s a one weekend course, uh, uh, accredited by, um, NCC, wham. I used to teach it all over the world, but now with COVID, uh, it’s, it’s better taught online that easier for everyone. And of course, there’s these maps that you can get with the locations we spent over a year, really working hard on getting all the specifics, um, for the point location to help people really, um, cause without the point of location, then no one would get results with this system. So these maps are very useful to have in clinic. Um, and then once you, you know, the points and you’ve taken the course, it’s all about practice.

Yes. Can you give us the, uh, the, the web, the name of your website or the name of, um, some online? Um, yes. Yeah,

Yeah. Um, so my website is a Chinesemedicinetraveller.com, a traveler with two L’s and.com. And you can find everything, uh, about the courses online, about the courses in various location that we have done in the past. And of course the charts are available for you. Great. Thank you very much for spending your time with us. And, uh, we definitely look forward to learning more about your entry criteria in the future. It was very nice seeing you again, Poney and thank you for this, uh, this chat. It was very fun. And, uh, looking forward to see you again,

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