Tag Archives: Poney Chiang

AACTTPChiangHD11242021 Thumb

The How and Why of Physical Examination for Acupuncturists



So in general, I think the physical examination is essential to all of us, no matter what style of acupuncture we practice, especially if you’re treating any kind of pain or injuries.

Click here to download the transcript.

Disclaimer: The following is an actual transcript. We do our best to make sure the transcript is as accurate as possible, however, it may contain spelling or grammatical errors.  Due to the unique language of acupuncture, there will be errors, so we suggest you watch the video while reading the transcript.

Hi. Good afternoon. My name is Poney Chiang from neuro-meridian.net. I’m joining you today from Toronto Canada. Uh, welcome to this week’s show for the American Acupuncture Council. Uh, my guest for today is Jamie Chavez. Jaime Chavez has been a licensed acupuncturist in California since 2002, and he received his master’s in traditional Chinese medicine and 5, 4, 5 branches and has participated in internships in Beijing, China. He specialized in the treatment of a work-related injuries. He is currently the head acupuncturist in a prominent bay area. Workers’ compensation connects and works alongside medical doctors, physiotherapists and orthopedic surgeons. Jamie is passionate about the art of physical examination and integrates multidisciplinary approach in the assessment treatment of MSK pathologies. Jamie has been an instructor in several bay area acupuncture schools at both the master’s and doctoral level. It was during this time that he discovered his passion for teaching.

Jamie has had the honor of introducing acupuncture to medical residents who periodically shouted him for clinical rounds. He has been a guest lecture for Stanford physician assistant program, and it has been actively teaching physical examination skills to acupuncturist in hospital settings. Jamie continues to find joy in spreading the word about the effectiveness of acupuncture. Also, you may, in case you haven’t know, um, you don’t know, and you should, you, Jamie is also the admin and founder of the Dow, uh, Facebook group, which is discussion acupuncture, orthopedics. So it having waiting to interview, uh, Jamie for a long time. Now he’s a busy guy, our schedules just never coincided. So I’m very, very, very excited to finally be able to make that happen. And, um, and very much looking forward to this, uh, this interview. Thank you so much for joining us. Jamie,

Thank you for having me. It’s a pleasure. Yeah.

So you are, um, the, um, the very passionate about physical examination and, uh, I know, you know, a lot of people don’t do that. And so for those of us that probably need a bit of, um, motivation or, um, what is it that you can tell us in terms of what makes physical examination so important to clinical practice?

So in general, I think the physical examination is essential to all of us, no matter what style of acupuncture we practice, especially if you’re treating any kind of pain or injuries. Um, it’s a way of holding yourself accountable so that you can prove or disprove your own thinking about what you are, you know, thinking is going wrong with patient. So someone comes in with the chief complaint and you gather the data and you think something’s going on, but you have to hold yourself accountable. You have to keep yourself in check and try to, um, eliminate your own bias and, uh, basically try to get better at gaining clinical experience because we’re all researchers in the clinic. And so this is our way to do research. So we want to find things that are reproducible, repeatable, and physical examinations, that bridge, you know, for me.

That’s great. Um, I have heard you talk about, um, uh, I’ve heard that you really enjoy teaching through acronyms and mnemonics and, uh, you know, it was just, we learned by association. So it’s good to have something to kind of associate things with, um, when it comes to, um, physical examinations, is there any, uh, not mnemonics that you think would be helpful for us to, to become more comprehensive in our, um, uh, intakes or in our assessments?

Yes, there’s a ton of them out there. I mean, I’ve, I’ve gathered and tried all these different ones over the years. Um, but none of them really, uh, crossed over and applied directly to an acupuncturist. So, you know, there was, there was missing pieces or the order was not right. So I came up with a mnemonic, um, a horse, uh, H O R S E. And I’ve been sticking with that one ever since. And, um, I can explain a little bit about what each of those letters means. Um, the H is the history of the patient. So that’s, you know, their past history, which is the things they fill out on the initial intake form, but then there’s the present history, which is, you know, regarding their chief complaint, what brought the patient into the clinic to be seen today, let’s get all the data regarding that specific topic.

And then, uh, the, oh, is the, uh, observation. So what do you see from the patient? And that’s now we’re getting into the physical exam skills. So what do you see when you look at the patient? And that usually begins the moment you lays up, you know, they eyes on them when they’re in the waiting room, when you walk them back to the treatment room and then, you know, there’s other, you know, key pieces that you’re going to look for, depending on what they’re coming in to be treated for. But observations really important. I’m very passionate about observation because it’s so fast and you can see so much if you know what you’re looking at. And a lot of times we see things, we just don’t know how to interpret it. So that’s something I’ve been really passionate about over the last couple of years and just really diving deep into it, just diagnosing by looking, um, the are for horses, range of motion, which is essential.

It’s one of the most important things that anybody can start using right away, because it’s so fast and you get so much data from the patient. There’s different types of range of motion. So there’s active range of motion. There’s passive range of motion. There’s resisted range of motion, resisted range of motion could be like your manual muscle tests, right? It’s all in that frame. You know, passive range of motion could be your muscle length tests. You know, there’s many different ways to look at that. And then the S is the special tests. Um, so that’s the orthopedic tests. Some people call those provocative tests because you’re trying to basically tease out where the problem’s coming from. And then the E is explored by palpation. You know, hands-on diagnosing by touching. So each of those, you know, contributes to the horse acronym, and that is the order of operation for me.

So we talked to the patient first, and then when it comes to physical exam, we look at them, we have them go through a movement assessment and that could be active, passive, or resisted, or all of them at the same time, you know, check each one individually and you would want to do it in that order. So active range of motion is first because you want to see how willing the patient is to even move right away. You’re already, you know, gauging where they’re at when you want to do other tests down the road, and then you would do passive next. And then you would do resisted last because resistive could be provocative. It could cause pain in a patient. You always save painful tests for last, because if you cause your patient discomfort, you know, they may say, okay, I don’t want to do this anymore.

Right? Like, let’s stop the exam here. So you’d, and if they’re, if you provoke their pain, you know, it also skews your results for everything else you check, because now that, you know, they feel a little discomfort. Now, everything you check is you don’t know how valid it is. And then for us, you know, we’re acupuncturist. So what are we going to do before we stick a needle? Now we’re going to palpate. So why not do that last? Um, and that in itself, how patient is provocative, it causes pain and patients. So definitely we want to save that towards the end and then go right into our needle. Hm.

Okay. I like that. It’s like from the, from the, uh, assessment, the palpation diagnostics, and it goes transition smoothly into the actual needling component. So it’s, it’s very seamless. Um, I’ve heard of, you mentioned something called the ABCs before. Is that also a type of, uh, assessment or is that something different?

That’s another acronym. So like, you’re mentioning, I love, I love mnemonics and acronyms. Right? Um, what, what you see a lot of, and, you know, I, you know, with social media and things, you kind of get a sense for how well people are able to extract data from their patient. Um, but the ancient horse is the history. And I have an entire course just on how to do, you know, a history. You know, we could talk about that all day, but to keep it really simple, there’s key components that you have to get from your patient when they come in. And there’s tons of acronyms for this. But the one that sticks with me the most is just knowing your alphabet. Cause who doesn’t know their alphabet. Right. That’s like the basics. So it’s, but this part of the alphabet is old. P Q R S T.

If you can remember OPQ Q R S T, you can get all the data very quickly from your patient. So for example, like if you like pony, if you’re on my patient and let’s say you shoulder pain, I would ask you the O, which is, you know, when did this happen? The onset, the O is for onset. When did this happen? And how often do you feel this complaint? Is it 24 hours a day? Or does it come and go if it comes and goes, how long does it hang around before you know, those kinds of things? So that’s the O the P is palliative and provocative palliative means, you know, uh, soothing to the pallet. So something that makes you feel better. So pony, what makes your shoulder feel better? What makes it feel worse? The other part of the P is provocative. Like these are essential questions, because if you tell me it feels worse at night when you’re sleeping, I already know there’s something wrong with your sleeping position.

That needs to be correct. You know, those kinds of things. Can you tell me he feels good, then obviously you’re going to feel good when you leave. When I use infrared heat, moxa, hot pack, you know, we already know what it’s going to help. Um, so the next thing is the quality and the quantity. So, um, you know, the quality of your pain tells us a lot. Is it sharp, dull, achy, burning, throbbing, et cetera. You know, the nature of pain gives us some clues. And then we can go to the quantity, which is like zero to 10. How is your pain right now in this moment that you’re talking to me, you know? And then how is it at its worst in the last 24 hours? How is it at its best then the last 24 hours? So that’s how we could use that pain scale a little more accurately.

And then the RSM LPQ. So O P Q R the R is radiate. Does it radiate anywhere? Is your, is your discomfort localized or does it go to a different area of your body? And this is important not to lead the patient. So if someone comes in with sciatica, I don’t say, does the, does the pain radiate from your back down to the bottom of your foot? Like you wouldn’t ask, you wouldn’t lead the patient, you gotta leave the questions open. Like, does your pink go anywhere else? If so, where and how often, you know, and then T is time, is your symptoms worse during a certain time of the day, morning, afternoon, or night? If you say you keep waking up in pain, I know something’s going on with your sleeping position, or maybe you have some arthritic changes, you know, and they get better as you warm up.

So it already gives you a lot of clues, but what you see as a lot of people don’t gather that data when they present case studies and things, and in the subjective information is key. Like you already have a clue, like a very good clue of what the problem is before you ever laid hands on the patient. If you do that old PQRST. And now when you get into the rest, the physical exam, you’re again, just trying to prove or disprove your hypothesis. So if I tell you, Hey, pony, I think you have a rotator cuff tear, and this is the reason why you have these symptoms, but then you have these data points and, you know, it’s like proving a case to yourself, holding yourself accountable versus like, well, I just heard that pain there means you could have this, you know, like, or I, when I press here at Hertz, like that’s not enough data we need to, we need to be more, um, we need to, to raise the bar on our level of a practice, you know?

That’s great. Yeah. Um, I definitely think that if you, if one does a very good history, um, oftentimes, you know, with some, with enough clinical experience, you already have you already kind of starting to find out in New York, you almost, you’re just doing one or two orthopedic tests to confirm, you know? Um, so, uh, a good history taking can actually, in a way, it seems like time-consuming, people might not want to do it, but it’s actually the opposite. I think that if you did a good history taking, you end up having to hone in faster and you’re going to be, uh, maybe it’d be more, more efficient in your practice. Actually. It’s not, it’s actually the, counter-intuitive not the other way around. Um, um, like for example, um, uh, I like the accountability discussion, you know? Um, because here’s the thing, obviously, as a practitioner, we, we, we always, we sometimes deal with practitioner at patients that are more difficult to say, oh, the pain is still there.

The pain is still there. Yeah. But it’s like 10% of what it used to be. Right. So, you know, it’s, you can’t make a yes or no. You have to, you know, many ways the quantitative or qualify it. Right. It does not refer. So this is how, you know, as meditation is working, but also sometimes the patient needs help knowing that too, because to them it’s like yes or no. Right. And yeah, and now the weird thing is that, um, the opposite can happen. Sometimes they can not be getting better, but they have so much trust in you. They say, say they are better, you know, that happens too. So, so these tests go both ways. It actually helps you, you know, if is actually better than not even though the patient might say it’s better, but it actually may not be. Right. So that’s

A good point.

Yeah. I know. So like,

They don’t want to hurt your feelings. They want to say, oh yeah, you’re doing a good job, you know,

But, uh, but you know, some sometimes, you know, I mean, of course there’s the, the, this, the report is the placebo effect. You know, the attention being heard, you know, uh, you know, maybe we just, I keep putting in needles, we help them to sleep in their, you know, their stress level is better. So indirectly things have gone better, but right. But you know, maybe the range of motion didn’t get better, that sort of things. But, you know, it is, if you didn’t take the time to do these assessments, then you’d be, you know, you’re not really truly helping the patient. Right. So I, I, I’m such a big fan of, um, of, um, these, um, more objective measures and does, so I hope I have a chance to, uh, to take one of your classes in near future.

Thank you. Yeah. Likewise. Yeah. There’s, I mean, the, the objective things is amazing. Cause it’s really the whole story. Like if you just, if you don’t go, if you don’t do that, you’re missing half the story. It’s like going to the movies and walking out halfway through, you’d never even found out what the ending was. You know, like by doing these things, like you said, you hold yourself accountable, you can see the, you know, the full presentation and something that I’ve been really like, just kind of blown away is that the more you do this, you start to understand your patient, the person in front of you better, you understand how they hurt themselves. And then you, you know, as you treat them and they start to get better, you’re able to have a better picture on Tet, you know, how to teach them how to prevent themselves from getting hurt.

Again, you know, it’s like the back pain I’ve been seeing so much ridiculous at the, in the last few months, I think from all the people working at home, sitting too much and things, but it’s always like, you know, their sleeping position, their sitting position or their standing position, how they stoop and twist and things. And then if you can identify the activities for them and show them how to move a little better, it’s like, wow, these patients that have had pain for 11 months over a year, nothing’s helping them after a couple of visits, all of a sudden they just shift, you know, it’s like, wow, okay. Those are the patients that are listening to your advice, you know, and then, you know, your acupuncture treatment and or whatever treatment you’re doing is going to hold better. It’s going to have a better, uh, um, lasting effect because they don’t just go home and immediately do the thing that w was causing their injury to begin with.

You know, so those are, it’s just, it’s so it’s so vital. And before I forget too, one of the things that I think is really important as clinical experience. So I know we always talk about, you know, okay. People like to talk about how many patients they’ve seen, but I look at it as like, how many pushups can you do? You can probably do a hundred really lousy pushups, but could you do like 10 really good ones? And I think that’s the same with treating patients. Can you treat 10 patients really good? And if you can, I think your clinical experience is going to be so much more profound than treating a hundred or a thousand patients very quickly without getting all that data, getting that feedback and seeing what your, you know, your input, what your needles are actually doing. So the more you go deeper, you know, you get a richer, more fulfilling experience that, you know, it’s going to help other people more down the road, you know,

[inaudible], you know, I actually, I find, um, um, you know, a lot of times the patients that come to our practice, um, have gone through the conventional healthcare system, which is not known for spending time with their patients. Right. So how do you know you remember how many times patients say to you? Oh, you know, you, they, they say that, oh, you know, more than my neurologist or, you know, more than my surgeon. It’s not that we know more than them. It’s just that we actually take the time to ask questions and do the assessments. So, but, but for whatever it’s worth that time, that the demonstration of your knowledge and doing the testing, listen carefully, it’s actually building rapport and confidence. So they’re already ready to be needled and treat it right by you. Right. You know, that’s a, that’s a big part of, um, the efficacy. I think that, you know, yeah. Like, you know, you explain what’s going on. Why is the referring for example, right. And this is why I’m going to show you here, even though you, your, your pain is there, but I’m going to need a, you hear that, that you lay out in race, a logical progression, and th they put them put some at and comfortable with you. Right. And I think that goes a long way to, you know, that rapport building is huge.

Yeah. I think that’s it.

Yeah. And, and I think that’s one, um, value of a good history or assessment taking that is, you know, it’s not just a, you know, a left brain diagnostic thing is actually can become a right brain emotional and relationship building kind of thing.

Absolutely. I had a, um, a patient yesterday and she was telling me that she went to another acupuncturist and she had a bad treatment. And then I saw I’m naturally gathering data all the time. So I said, well, what defines a bad treatment to you? You know, I want to know, cause I don’t want to repeat those mistakes. And so, you know, basically she went in for back pain, the patient, the practitioner said, so what’s going on? You have back pain. Okay. Let’s have you lay on your stomach needles in needles out after she gets off the table. Okay. Have a nice day. Never once anything else. And I don’t, I don’t want to, I’m not saying that that’s bad. I mean, I’ve treated, been shaded by amazing practitioners that that can do that. But what I’m saying for us, you know, for the majority of people, you know, taking the time to actually figure out what’s going on with the person and letting them know that you, you know, what you’re doing is profound versus the shotgun approach where I just do protocols or recipes for every person.

And then you depend on that. So when it works great, you’re the hero. You feel so good about the experience, but when it doesn’t work, you have no idea what to do next, you know? And then it goes back to what you’re saying, like, you know, that, that rapport, but what I see as it comes down to trust, like your patients need to trust you. And if you know what you’re talking about, and you can explain it to the patient on their level, you can see that trust right away. I mean, I had a new patient yesterday. I didn’t even put needles in yet and he’s already trying to refer me people. I haven’t even treated him yet. It’s because he had four different complaints and we were able to like, okay, here’s, what’s at this. And he’s like, Hey, you know, you know where my problem’s coming from. He’s like, you know, can I send people to you? And I haven’t even treated him yet, you know? But the trust, the trust is already there.

So the take home message is that do good assessment through good history and it’ll lead to more referrals,

More trust. And not only tomorrow,

That’s talk about common mistakes that we make in our, in our, um, clinical examination, history, taking process. Uh, you know, as an instructor, you, um, must see this a lot. Can you help give us some ideas of what are some things that we can do better? Where some common examination mistakes. I thought you mentioned, for example, don’t say, does your pain start from here? Refer there. I don’t don’t coach them. That’s one. Right? Anything else that you can, you can let us know? Yeah.

Yeah. For sure. There’s a ton, obviously, you know, I’m making mistakes all the time and learn from them. But I say the number one mistake is to assume anything. Um, so if you start assuming things, you know, you don’t leave room for air and there, and as you, you know, get experience in this profession, you become very aware that nothing is always right. So you always see people say, oh, that treatment works like a charm. That treatment works every time that no, it doesn’t, you know, like there’s no, there’s no perfect of anything. So I wouldn’t jump on the thing and say, you have a rotator cuff tear based, you know, I’m certain of this for me. I like to say, well, these things suggest the possibility that this might be going on, but I could be wrong. And, but we’re going to treat it like that.

And we’re going to keep reassessing as we go. And if what we’re doing is working great, let’s keep doing it. If it’s not working, we’re probably missing something. Leave the door open for mistakes, because you’re going to make mistakes every single day. And if you’re at this level where you don’t make mistakes and you, you feel like everything works like a charm, um, you have to check yourself, you have to hold yourself accountable and get back to this understanding that, you know, there is no two people that are exactly the same. And you could be very wrong about this person in front of you. I mean, I had a person with supposedly a rotator cuff tear who had cancer in his shoulder. And it took, it took the doctors a while to figure out that there was a tumor in there, you know, but if I, I learned a valuable lesson from that experience, because if I was in private practice, he was getting better with acupuncture.

He was a swimming teacher and he was getting his range of motion, was getting better. He was getting stronger, less pain. He was doing good. Unfortunately, there was cancer in there and I did not, there was no way I would have known it. I would have thought that, Hey, okay, you’re doing good discharge you. So, I mean, never, never assume anything in this business. Um, so that’s a big mistake. I think another big mistake is to, uh, jump on a bandwagon. So you learn a couple of assessments tools, and you think that’s all there is you need to continue to go deeper. You know, it’s not one thing, you know, if you do manual muscle testing, for example, that’s a great tool, but that’s not your entire picture of that horse acronym. That’s a one little sliver and you need to incorporate as many of those pieces as you can, to develop an educational guests that support your hypothesis.

So if you only have one little sliver of information and you go, okay, you, your problem is this because you know, this muscle is weak or whatever you are missing, the bigger picture, you know? So I would say, you know, keep learning like never, never, you know, get satisfied. You got to go deep. And if you want to try to get better at something, what I found helpful for me is just pick a body part. So like, for example, I keep saying shoulder, cause it’s on my mind. But you know, if you go to the say, I want to learn shoulders, you can learn shoulders really easily. I mean, the technology is in your hand, the anatomy is in your, in your phone, just take some notes, right. But then what you need to do is just, you know, fill in the blanks of that horse.

So what kind of questions should I ask someone who has a shoulder problem? There are some specific questions that can help guide your, if you’ve got pain at nighttime, that’s a very common symptom of rotator cuff tears. When, you know, wakes you up from your sleep. It doesn’t mean you have a rotator cuff tear if you wake up from sleep. But it’s just one more data point or one more clue. You know, if you, you know, what do you see when you look at a patient who has a rotator cuff issue, what is their range of motion going to be like actively passively resisted? And then what special tests can help differentiate two competing diagnosis? So maybe there’s like, I think it’s this or this. Well, there’s going to be some tests that can be used that differentiate that. And then when it comes to palpation, that’s our, that’s our expertise.

But just know what’s underneath your finger. You got to get in there and know how to differentiate. If I pop a [inaudible] with the arm, you know, resting on some, like my hands on my belly and I press on July 15, I’m touching the supraspinatus tendon. But if my hand is out to the side on the table with my Palm to the ceiling and our press, I 15, I’m more likely pressing the biceps tendon now. So it’s just like little subtle things like that. Can, you know, they’re so basic, but when you apply them, it seems like it’s advanced, but it’s really not. Um, so those, those are some common things off the top of my head, but there are a lot of things that we do wrong and there’s still a lot of things that I do wrong, but I think maybe the, the worst thing you could do is stop learning, you know, keep being motivated because we’re helping people.

And we’re in this profession that is bridging this gap between surgery and everybody else that’s not helping these patients like we are on the frontline and acupuncture is that effective. It blows my mind every day, but we have to have a way to test how effective it is to get that experience that I was talking about that helps us to be better. And then share that information freely, freely with your colleagues. So everybody’s better. I think that is one of the best things we can do as a profession. And I hope we can get there.

Certainly I think if, um, we all up our own game by becoming better at doing assessments, it would transform the prestige and the, you know, the, uh, the reputation of our, our profession for sure. Right? Like, uh, the it’s, um, now I will run out of time, but I, I, I have to pick your brain. Okay. Um, I want you, can you share like a clinical Pearl with us? I always like to do this, something that you pay, perhaps you really good at treating, you know, you’re talking about shoulders today, anything about shoulders or something like that, that, uh, you know, some, some assessment or diagnostic advice you can give us so that we can maybe try it out, or maybe it’s something that we’re not, not thinking in that way and give us a different thinking cap to help us look at the body or assess, um, the patient, any advice for our fellow listeners and viewers today.

Sure. Um, my lead-in will be that, you know, there are, there is this like, you know, movement where people are saying, you know, special tests, orthopedic tests are not good. Those people unfortunately have not done the research. And it’s much easier to say it’s not good then to dive deep and learn it because it takes a long time to really understand all these things. And I know because I’ve been going through it. But one thing that I’ve been doing in the last year is digging in and picking apart all the research and starting to pick out, you know, tests that have been proven time after time to be effective and how effective those tests are like, uh, you know, changing your post-test probability of someone having a problem. So no orthopedic tests are not bad. Yes, they’re great. But you have to understand how to utilize them.

So a really simple clinical Pearl for shoulders is if somebody tries to raise their arm over their head, but they can’t. And they ended up shrugging their shoulder into their ear. Based on the research, they are 15% more likely to, if they, if they can do this without shrinking their shoulder, they’re 15% less likely I should say, to not have a rotator cuff problem. So people who can raise their arm easily and freely, you know, that’s, they could still have a rotator cuff issue because people are asymptomatic and so forth. But when you see somebody shrug their shoulder into their ear to try to raise their arm, what that tells you right away, is there something wrong with their shoulder? It doesn’t tell you what it is, but it’s what they’ve narrowed it down to. It’s either the rotator cuff it’s frozen shoulder, or they have arthritis in the joint so that there is a sh there’s a high probability that somebody has a shoulder issue.

If they put their shoulder in their ear to try to raise their arm over their head and they can raise it all the way. And then as a side note, let’s say, you’re that person that can raise your arm easily, but you can’t bring it down very easily. Like you have to bend your elbow to, to shorten the moment arm so that it’s not as heavy. You end up bending the arm or you support it to bring it down. That starts showing you like, okay, this person is more likely to have a rotator cuff issue. And that sign alone changes the post-test probability by 15%. So what does that mean? Wow, that’s a lot of information, but what they’ve shown is the number one risk factor for rotator cuff injuries is age. And if you’re 60 years old, you’re 25% more likely to have a rotator cuff tear.

If you come in saying my shoulder hurts. So 25% of those people have rotator cuff tears. If that person has a hard time lowering their arm, now you add to that 25%, an extra 15, and you go, oh, this person is 40% likely to have a rotator cuff tear going on. Just with that information alone. I didn’t even ask them any questions and they do it at intake. I didn’t do the other tests. Just those two pieces of information alone. He’s 40% more likely to have a rotator cuff tear. He’s 60 years old and he can’t lower his arm without bending his elbow and supporting it. So these tests, when you use them like that, they can give you some good clues to support your hypothesis.

Thank you so much. I would love that because a lot of times people look at things like under, you know, on the way up or, or, uh, doing the activation part, but they don’t look at the entire process. There’s another 50% of it is when they put themselves back into neutral position. And that, that part you mentioned where they with shortening their arm. Like if you just turn around to do your charting, you would miss that complete, right? Yeah. That’s exactly right. Yeah. So I really, I really, really watched the entire process. You know, I really read a lot, so I thank you very much. I’d love, I learned so much from you in this short amount of time that we have for today. Where can the rest of us go? If we want to find out more information about your courses, do you have any contact information, you know, website, social media, uh, work. When you go to, if you want to study more with you in the future,

Um, you can check out the Facebook group discussions on acupuncture, orthopedics, uh, Dao, D a O is the acronym to make it easy to remember. Cause I love that. There you go. So, and then I have my website it’s www.orthopedic-acupuncture.org, orthopedic-acupuncture.org.

Thank you so much, Jamie. It’s been a pleasure. It’s been an honor to finally meet you virtually face-to-face. Thank you very much. They are that. Yeah. Thank you for most of our fellow viewers. And don’t forget to join us next week, where we’re going to have my fellow host, Virginia Doran. Uh, gimme another excellent show.


Chiang-AAC09292021 Thumb

Segmental Acupuncture



Josh regularly, pursues high level trainings in cranial and visceral manipulation and has profound understanding of the interplay between the nervous system internal organs and musculoskeletal system.

Click here to download the transcript.

Disclaimer: The following is an actual transcript. We do our best to make sure the transcript is as accurate as possible, however, it may contain spelling or grammatical errors.  Due to the unique language of acupuncture, there will be errors, so we suggest you watch the video while reading the transcript.

Hi, my name is Poney Chiang from Toronto Canada. I teach continuing education courses from neuromeridian.net. Uh, welcome to this week’s live Facebook podcast show for the American Acupuncture Council. My guest for today is Josh Margolis. Joshua has been practicing manual medicine and bodywork since 1995 and acupuncture in Chinese herbal medicine since 2001 from 2005 to 2009. He was a faculty at the academy of Chinese culture and health sciences in Oakland. And yeah, I keep on change here to medicine in college in Berkeley, teaching anatomy, orthopedic acupuncture, advanced channel theory and pain management. Currently Joshua is on staff at the osteopathic college of Ontario and teaches in the doctoral program at several bay area acupuncture colleges. Additionally, he teaches segmental acupuncture and manual therapy of courses for acupuncturists throughout the United States. Josh regularly, pursues high level trainings in cranial and visceral manipulation and has profound understanding of the interplay between the nervous system internal organs and musculoskeletal system. In Joshua’s years of practice in the bay area, he has gained a diverse, loyal following comprise of professional musicians, dancers, yogis restauranteurs, athletes, and as well as children, the elderly and those with severe chronic illnesses, he has been practicing art from a Copia in Santa Rosa, California in 2011, as a pleasure for you to, for me to be able to have this chat with you today. Joshua welcome.

Thanks for having me here.

And, um, uh, are you joining us today from Santa Rosa right now?

Yeah, Santa Rosa, California. Yeah. It’s morning time here.

So I have been hearing really great, wonderful things about your courses. And I look forward to view a study with you in person, hopefully sooner rather than later. Um, so this is why I wanted to, um, use my spot for a guest today to steal all your secrets. I want to, I want to pick your brain and hear what is it that you do? What influences you like brings you? What makes you, you passionate about what you do? So let’s start by, um, telling us a little about, about yourself. I know I already give an in in-depth introduction, but you know, who, or what influenced you the most, would you say as far as, uh, practicing clinically speaking?

Well, I’ve always had my foot kind of into two worlds. Uh, I don’t that are not the domain. So, uh, and I used to feel like I put on two hats. Those are the two worlds being manual therapy and acupuncture, and I’ve always felt I had to kind of put two hats on and be like, okay, now it’s anatomy time and I’m going to do osteopathy. And now it’s acupuncture channel time and I’m going to do some kind of distill acupuncture, ear acupuncture. So, you know, I got pretty quick at, at, uh, switching my hats back and forth. Um, but of, you know, uh, thinking about how to integrate those things has been kind of an ongoing question for me. Uh, the, those two hats. So there’s been a couple key influences along the way. Um, Michael Kuchera who is, uh, an osteopath, I think he’s in, uh, Kirksville.

Uh, he wrote some great books on, uh, osteopathy for internal medicine, uh, disorders, and it really talks a lot about segmental organization and how you can, uh, exterminate you from external stimulus, uh, affect the internal processes. Um, and on a, another from the acupuncture side, uh, C Chan Gunn Chan Gunn, uh, really with the intramuscular stimulation and that concept of taking motor points and acupuncture or a trigger points and going back to the spine and treating the spine first and looking at that as maybe, uh, a more centrally mediated problem that, you know, partially maintained at the spinal cord level. Um, those two were really big in, uh, kind of my early, early career, uh, and continuing on. Um, there’s so many, there’s so many and Carol Levitt, uh, from the Czech Republic was a physician who really turned me on to, uh, functional, uh, musculoskeletal assessment and looking more beyond, you know, beyond what is sort of broken, but more how, how does movement happen and how can we coordinate movement?

And that has really influenced my acupuncture, uh, as well as manual work. And then, you know, researchers like you pony, to be honest, because, uh, you know, you’re taking that, looking at, uh, acupuncture, meridians and points through two lenses and, and really doing the research and the background work, um, and that, you know, that, that sort of legacy from Joseph Long and, and the others from the sort of Toronto medical acupuncture to unity, um, have been, uh, uh, a real influence to me. I was lucky enough to study with a medical acupuncturist, uh, early in my, in my career in that. So I’ve always been, uh, most of my professional life and very interested in that interplay and understanding, uh, kind of how, how things work, not just what works for what, right. I’m sure

For you, it’s the same as it is for me. The, the excitement is being able to find the similarities and find the anatomy and it, and it used to have medicine actually independently validate each other. There you find, uh, you know, oh, this is that same thing in the nature thing. And I say exactly about this anatomy, and then it just, uh, you know, you can have, I’m sure we can have a lot of decals and about all these, like, oh, how did these ancient people know like this anatomy, you know, um, so Russo, I’m glad that we, uh, like-minded because I know, um, you bring kind of the best of both worlds and that’s what I like to do also. Um, so tell me about, um, segmental acupuncture. Uh, I see that you’ve been teaching quite a bit of workshop about them. I know that’s probably a very in depth topic. Could you just, you know, give us with the coleslaw version of, uh, give us a sense of what is segmental acupuncture? How is it different from, um, you know, like, uh, a, a TCM approach, for example?

Yeah, that’s a great question. Um, I mean, the key thing is to understand that our tissues remember where they came from. So during embryologic development, you know, our, our tissues, uh, migrate off of, uh, you know, essentially a segmented worm type of, uh, uh, you know, our embryo is kind of a segmented worm and our tissues literally travel off that in different segments, but when they travel, they drag their nerve supply along with, um, so during that, during development and then on into, you know, birth and adult life, those connections stay, uh, PTEN the, you know, the segmental, the body doesn’t forget its segmental organization. Even if those tissues might’ve migrated quite far away from the original segment. And, you know, you have the, you know, the germ layers, dermatome, myotome, and sclera tome. And so now people are talking about the viscera Tom or the Interra tome for the internal organs, but essentially you have the skin, the muscles and the bone sensation.

Um, those, those might not overlap perfectly, you know, the muscles move in a different way than the dermatome moves and works in a little different way than the sclera tone. So, uh, we can access all these different layers and these different laborers can have their own ridiculously related pain too. You can have that sclerotomal pain, you know, with, uh, with, uh, someone who has a nerve, uh, nerve root injury that might be like this deep aching, hard to pinpoint just sort of pervasive pain, or you can have that more superficial dermatome pain burning, uh, you know, sharp, oh, kind of electric type sensation. So, you know, understanding that kind of, I find it’s very, very helpful. Um, another thing, uh, to, to understand key points regarding that, um, concept that the nerves have been dragged along is that, um, everything in, uh, in a segment influences everything else in a segment for good or for ill.

So that means that, uh, if you injure something in a segment, then it facilitates, it lowers the threshold for irritation, for other structures that share that same, uh, Embry logic, uh, source that seems segmental source. Um, so that, that’s a really key concept to understand, and that can help us develop, uh, distal type treatments are not always distillable. You might be treating appendicular really for, uh, for a trunk problem, or you might be treating actively for, uh, a peripheral problem, but, uh, that, uh, that those relationships has really stayed at stay active. And you can, you can, neuromodulate quite strongly, uh, using these inputs. So for example, like I, I’m very into, uh, periosteal pecking, uh, that’s real popular in the, in the, uh, British medical acupuncture world, uh, Felix man, and, uh, um, Cummings, uh, I think, uh, they, you know, that that approach is incredibly effective for modulating.

The whole segment. You can have a person who has, you know, a terrible rotator cuff injury, and then you heck the periosteum along the greater CA uh, treater tubercles or the humerus. Uh, and then, uh, you can change how the entire myotome behaves, uh, quite quickly, uh, very, very effective, very, very interesting. So, you know, the key being the non, uh, nociceptive inputs, uh, into the, into the segment, uh, will, uh, beneficially affect all the other structures. And, and also, you know, consequently, if there’s an injury that will negatively affect all the other structures that share that same sick mental intervention. So, you know, things like an injury to the sake of spring to the SSI joint, for example, could, can mimic sciatica, you know, [inaudible], uh, dermatome. So, you know, they might have a sclerotomal injury of the ligaments and the, and the, uh, periosteum and, uh, bone, but dogs are gonna feel the sensation, maybe along the S one S two dermatome, uh, you know, their heart disease coming down, the T1 T2 dermatomes, that’s more of a autonomic related segmental, uh, phenomenon or liver disease can show up sometimes in the C3 four, cause the capsule of the liver is innervated by the phrenic nerve.

So you can get liver disease. People can feel that right sided, neck and shoulder pain. These are just some very classical examples, but are relevant to, to assessment, uh, and understanding, uh, potential origins of things. Um, you know, I’m, I’m not going to go too long on this, but another concept that’s pretty awful here that overlays is the osteopathic consent concept of the facilitated segment, um, where, uh, through prolonged irritation or, uh, enough of an initial insult that the segment will itself will just become irritated and stay in an irritated state. And that, what that means is that the threshold for irritation for, to, to cause, uh, tissues to respond is becomes lower. Um, the, uh, reaction may be higher and, uh, you know, to the extent that even a non what should be a non painful stimulus might, might, uh, read as painful in, uh, to, to the body.

So these are all, uh, you know, assessable, uh, for us as, as acupuncturists doing physical medicine, doing physical assessments, we can see signs of all of this. So, you know, there’s something we call it, the red sign and osteopathy where you drag your fingers. Uh, so vigorously along the pair of spinal tissues, kind of along the Quato druggie points, um, you know, 2, 3, 4 times. And you’ll see at a segment that is, uh, more facilitated, more, uh, active, uh, irritated that you’ll have, uh, extended red response. Uh, you’ll see, pin will stay red, uh, you’ll find pseudo motor activity, uh, muscle shortening tenderness, uh, and perhaps, uh, Teebo like motion dysfunctions, uh, at these segments. And these are mostly autonomic signs and they’re probably autonomically. Uh, they seem to be autonomically mediated. So, uh, a lot of what we can do is then look back at a chart for, you know, sympathetic, uh, innervation in particular.

And, uh, you can learn a lot about what’s going on. Uh, there’s been some research that really shows that these pair of spinal signs show up before internal medicine, uh, disorders are, uh, measurable often that, you know, as the Oregon is inflamed and irritated, it’s sending back, uh, signals that it’s in trouble. And then that facilitates the segment. So, you know, we have, uh, so Maddow visceral and this row of somatic reflexes in the body, as well as some ADOT some ADOT and, uh, this were visceral reflexes, but from the acupuncture standpoint, a lot of what’s interesting are the interface between the Soma, our musculoskeletal system, our muscles joints, uh, cutaneous nerves, and internal body. And we’re starting to be able to map this, uh, pretty, pretty well. There’s been a, uh, osteopaths really researching this, uh, trying to validate, um, osteopathic, uh, uh, therapy theory and, um, uh, you know, things that people are noticing clinically, right?

We’ve been collecting clinical data for, you know, clinicians on our patients for a long time, but to start to understand that a little more with the science behind that. So they’ve been looking at that for, you know, 120 years now or something like that, but we can see these things in Chinese medicine, like the moon shoe points are very closely related to segmental innervation. Some of them are pretty precise and some of them are a little off like the small intestine and bladder points are more probably affecting the parasympathetics to the, to those organs rather than the FedEx small intestine much, but certainly the bladder and the uterus and so on using them like Bali out on the lower, the lower shoe points, the mood points are pretty, pretty, pretty well, uh, line up, uh, with very few exceptions, uh, segmentally, um, you know, things like spleen six, we can understand a little bit more about what we’re doing, and then there’s all these, you know, various techniques that have come out of, uh, mostly Western medical acupuncture, um, that are, are very helpful for us in the clinic. So that’s, uh, maybe a longer answer than you were looking for, but

No, that’s good. It’s important to lay the foundations. Right. Um, so the, the, the facilitation that you described does a work both as a lot of this, I be so sematic. Um, so that there’s some, if you have a chronic elbow issue that can lead to its corresponding segmental, glandular, or organ dysfunction, or like, you know, somebody who has a chronic organ issue when being more predisposed to certain types of joint or muscular movement disorders, um, that does that theory apply in both directions.

Yeah. That’s a great question. And yes, it does. Um, any, any irritant, you know, of enough, either severity like intensity or time will eventually have the potential to, uh, facilitate a segment. So when you go somato visceral, um, usually that’s, uh, like say you have like an upper back restriction, which could affect your, uh, cardiac function. There was like some cardiac chiropractors did a study and I’m sorry, I cannot find the study anymore. But I remember reading this study where they showed that there was a correlation between forward head posture and cardiac disease, for example, so tension in those upper, you know, 3, 4, 5, 6 thoracic vertebra and lack of movement, lack of nourishment seemed to affect cardiac function, have a interrelationship to cardiac. Um, and you can see it the other way. So, you know, someone has, uh, like heart disease. They’re going to potentially have more medial elbow pain because you’ve got that T1 T2 dermatome.

There’s going to be a, uh, there’ll be more easy. It’ll take less to injure that area. It won’t necessarily become like allogenic, except for in a more like severe case where you may have ongoing, uh, pain, like in head zones, for example, uh, and whatnot. But yeah, it’s, that’s important that concept that, uh, the somatic visceral, visceral sematic, it goes both ways. The work of, uh, uh, Akio Sato or Saito I, Japanese researcher, he wrote a great paper, like in 1997, that summarized kind of all that, all that stuff. Uh, and then, um, Myron Beale and Louisa burns are osteopathic researchers. Who’ve done a lot of work on the, on, on that, the sort of somatic and some out of visceral reflexes. There was a lot of literature on it actually. Um, but the Seto work is particular. It’s interesting because he was particularly looking at like, what happens if he massages little parts of like a rat and then looking at their autonomic nervous system and what was happening in like gastric motility, uh, bladder and those kinds of things. He, he did a lot of study on that. Him and his group did a lot of studies on that kind of thing. And I did the paper from 97 is sort of his retirement paper that covers all of his other videos. So the basic idea from the one,

Yeah. Uh, I wanna, I want to touch on what you talked about with the frame that phrenic nerve and its relationship to the capsule around the liver. Um, just as a reminder for everybody, because when I found out about that, that I was like, it was like a mind blowing emoji, like, uh, I, uh, when I thought about that, like, you know, the phrenic nerve innervates, the diaphragm, the diaphragm is in the TCM hypochondriacal region. And we also associate that liver she’s technician, right? So there’s a connection to the diaphragm and the FedEx nerve and the signs and symptoms there, but she’s stagnation. And now you have like actual anatomical basis to explain that the friend in there for some reason, get sensory information from the capsule and deliver. So the state of the tension, you know, Chinese person talks about like softening deliberate as a course of treatment.

The state of the tension of the liver through this capsule somehow is information that the phrenic nerve needs. And presumably that sensory input has there creates a reflexive, um, motor output to control the contraction of the, of the diaphragm. So it’s really, really beautiful that like, there is a connection between the liver and liver moving the cheese, you know, the, the, the, uh, the extradition we have in Chinese medicine. Yeah. So I, I, and now that’s related to like, you know, cervical radicular, apathy issues at the, you know, the upper cervical area and it’s associated with dermatomes and upper back. Um, it’s, uh, it’s just, you know, so exciting. Um, do you notice patterns like that? You know, like you can run a TCM and the patients, all of us all have like neck problems or something.

Yeah. Oh, certainly. I mean, certainly more like classical kind of distal acupuncture type techniques. You see all kinds of things that are sort of beyond the segmental thing and the, you know, like how did they figure out these interrelationships, like, you know, liver three improves blood flow at the brachial plexus. So yes, it works for neck problems. Right. But, you know, that’s a super segmental thing. Yeah. And the, and, you know, and you see the overlap with, as you mentioned with the liver, right. The C3 four, you know, you’ve got the super cool vicular nerves, you know, that’s a segmental relationship. So, you know, if the diaphragm or, uh, the liver at C3 four gets irritated, then there’s a potential to send hypersensitized C3 and four, which is, uh, you know, this whole, this whole region. So that kind of dive from attic or that, uh, trapezius pain that everybody sees often as related to, uh, some kind of liver congestion.

Okay. Interesting. So it’s all coming together. [inaudible] everyone has the richest, the nation, everybody has tight trapezius muscles. Right. So it can not be, um, I want you to discuss about German layers and, uh, do you use that, um, embryological concept and the way you select points or the way you assess a problem? How does that, how, how does that apply clinically?

Yeah, so, you know, the germ germ layers, dermatome, myotome, and sclerotomal, uh, just briefly those, those are the layers of, um, Misa term, he’s a normal development. So that’s what goes to make the dermatome goes to make the dermis. So the under deeper layers of the skin, uh, the myotome goes on to make the muscles that, and the sclerotomal goes on to make the, um, the, basically the spot, the spinal column and the ribs. Um, they, we do use the term sclerotomal a little more broadly in the adult, we know, refers to ligaments and bones, uh, and their innervation, but, uh, it’s so it’s used a little differently. The other two terms stayed pretty, pretty, uh, pretty, uh, uh, consistent. Um, but anyway, you know, one, one thing about using those different layers as these tissues migrate, you know, remember what I said earlier that the segment, uh, is continues to be interrelated and because tissues migrate it kind of different rates and different amounts, you may find that the dermatome and less Clariton don’t line up.

So someone may like have a broken phone, but you may be able to access the dermatome, uh, somewhere along the way. Um, or you may be able to access the myotome. You know, there’s a Hilton’s law, right? The, the, uh, that the, uh, basically muscles crossing a joint, uh, share fibers with the joint itself and with the, you know, overlying skin. So, uh, you can, you can access at any level to affect all the other levels. So, you know, that’s, that can be a really effective now, you know, thinking again, as general set mentally, you can go back to treat axially or peripherally for a problem. So if someone has a, I talked about shoulder problems earlier, right? So most shoulder, most of the shoulder, the glenohumeral joint is C5 C6, right? That covers pretty much the majority of the medial C4 on the, um, superficial bits and the skin.

But you could go back, uh, if someone had like a shoulder replacement surgery or frozen shoulder or whatnot, you could go back and look at the, uh, you could go back and look at like, see four or five and six at the neck, and you could treat the, uh, something I find is helpful is doing like a periosteal pecking on like C5, C6, uh, at the articular pillar can really neuromodulate the whole, that whole shoulder quite effectively. Uh, you could do that if you don’t do pecking and don’t have training in that are not interested in, you know, a stronger stimulation like that. You might just needle them all Tiffany in the neck, you know, do some deep repair of spinal noodling. Uh, you can run electrical stem, all those things are really effective for effecting, uh, sort of axial to peripheral. Um, you know, and then that goes both ways.

So if someone’s having C5, C6, right, C6 is kind of the, um, crisis point, uh, for the, uh, neck, right. Most mobile vertebra. And then it’s connected to C five or C seven, which already, which is one of the least mobile cervical vertebra. Um, and then T1, which of course has the ribs. So it’s more fixated. So there’s a sort of maximum movement, minimal movement right next to each other. And those time zones kinda ended up having problems. So you can, you could modulate C5 C6 on the, uh, C5. It like the greater tubercle of the humerus and C6 is more of the upper condoms or, uh, some parts of the posterior shaft of the humerus if you wanted to pack, but you could also look, okay, you can say C6, right, C6, you make a six, I don’t know if that’s coming out as a six, but, you know, in the old, uh, you could treat that dermatome only, you know, with like large intestine four or, you know, other other points that are related.

Um, so, you know, the germ layers, uh, I think are helpful, mark, conceptually, I haven’t found a way to go, like, you know, this is this and that, you know, like myotome is better for this, or dermatome is better for this, or sclerotomal, except for that, I would say sclerotomal stimulation is more effective for that really stubborn pain yeah. Pain that just won’t budge. And because there’s a lot of sympathetic innervation, uh, at the periosteum, uh, that kind of stimulation is really helpful if there’s like, uh, a, uh, some sort of autonomic piece and, you know, innovation is incredibly important. Um, and, uh, for everything including trigger points, right? You can feel a trigger point in if you know how you don’t even have to press the muscle. Cause there’s a pseudo-motor effect. There’s often a temperature difference. So, you know, every, almost every pain condition is going to have some change in the autonomics. And so if you, if you know how to look for that, that’s, that’s kind of a key to the assessment related to that, because your rotation at like a sclerotomal level, like a sprained ankle or a chronically sprained ankle is going to affect that whole segment. So you’re able to treat that, maybe that question.

Yeah. Um, just for our listeners, um, when Josh is talking about to a motor, you were talking about like, uh, the sweating, um, regulation of, uh, autonomic nervous system, right? Yeah. Yeah. So you’re able to is training, uh, palpate the, the, um, uh, the poor to the skin, um, in the vicinity of the trigger point and be able to diagnose, diagnose, uh, financial and point, even without having to push down to get that Asha tender feeling, just fine, touch alone, you’re going to start noticing some changes. Um, so this is, yeah, this is, this is really a very interesting, I, I, um, I, you know, everybody dermatomes in the mountains very well known third toast, you know, that started as the least well researched, but as, um, kind of the secret weapon in a way to be able to have that understanding, I would love to be able to combine those layers together and be able to treat, um, you know, cry problems from a different perspective.

That’s really, really interesting that you’ve had a lot of experience kind of seeing when to use which layer for which type of problem. Um, I also found it very interesting that like ligaments and, um, and, uh, and the attendants are, uh, part surely from the scotoma as well, because in Chinese medicine, they always talk about gene group, seniors and bone together as a binary. They don’t really separate those terms, um, you know, differently. So it’s interesting that those they share same, um, type of term, uh, German, um, innovations. Um, that’s finished up with the clinical Pearl. Um, uh, I heard that you have a lot of success in you. Um, I guess I’m very consistent results really inside a car. Is it possible for us to give, you know, give our viewers and listeners advice so that we can become more proficient in treating, um, such a debilitating problem as Sika?

Yeah, sure. Um, for a really acute sciatica, um, if there’s too much, uh, like muscle for boarding and spasm in the back or piriformis, uh, whether it’s, uh, radicular or a piriformis syndrome, these same approaches will, will be effective. Um, I often will use, uh, just the Bajan points, um, that, that when you get, uh, for really acute problems along the, and this is nothing new for Chinese medicine fans, um, really acute problems, the further away you are from the actual site often is more effective and like stimulating the cutaneous nerves, they’re the gene Wells or the, or the, the, uh, yang spraying points tends to be more effective for that really very hot acute pain. Um, I find you get a more complete, uh, regulation of the whole system. So I often will just for the first couple of visits at someone’s, you know, the people will get like brought in by their family member or, you know, couldn’t drive themselves to the clinic.

Um, those people I tend to use like often, uh, maybe kidney seven, especially if I can get a tibial nerve, you know, like, uh, if I can get a sensation down to the heel or to the toes when I, when I manually regulate it, those are usually my line of first, uh, first input, you know, maybe, uh, uh, like lingo.by something up there up higher, just to, you know, because sick mentally, uh, in terms of like gate control theory, if, if you, if you stimulate something at a higher level than the problem that does have an additive effect, it’s not as good as like treating the right segment, but, you know, your even 5% more is a lot for someone who can’t move, you know, so, so I do add some points that are higher up, um, but then for more chronic or, uh, pain, or if the muscle boarding’s not too severe, I often use, uh, Craig pins, which is, uh, is a, um, medical acupuncture technique where basically you needling along the bladder or the Pato judgy line make a central module encompassing the segments that are involved.

Uh, you can go higher, make it more like a profusion, include the autonomic levels, but you just do the sensory motor level. So say Attica is primarily S one S two. So you really need to focus on the sacrum. You might go up as high as T 12 a to L two, to cover those autonomics, but then we’re going to add, uh, local points as appropriate. So glute, max and piriformis, both of them, you know, primarily, uh, you’re getting like L five S one S two, uh, glute max. I think you get a little lower as well, but the, um, those are totally related to the Syns towed to dermatome problem that the person’s feeling pain they’re having. And then you can then add, uh, points like laying ho or, uh, which is like a posterior gallbladder 34 it’s sometimes called and, uh, and a bladder 40 to get the peroneal nerves and the, the, uh, tibial nerves as well.

So, you know, I, you don’t, you can be very flexible in terms of how you, how you do this, but each module goes at kind of a higher frequency usually. So, you know, it might be one to two Hertz, centrally, uh, two to four Hertz in the gluteus Maximus piriformis, and maybe, uh, like four to 15 or even higher, if you’re doing, um, sensory nerves, uh, down the leg way, sometimes bladder 60, or kidney three, you can, uh, kidney or kidney six, you can get more of the sensory fibers down there, uh, with a higher frequency, maybe as high as a hundred Hertz. Um, but I find that this works well.

I’m going to ask a question for the benefit of the listeners, because I know they’re going to want the specifics. So for the platform that you mentioned for the two sag example, um, would you be doing electrical stimulation there too? And what if so our frequency?

Yeah, the phone, if I tend to use, um, I tend to use a higher frequency. I can use like a hundred, sometimes 200 times even 500. Um, I, I do it either two ways, depending on kind of either position of the patient or their own squeamishness either. We’ll put it on like a high-frequency with like one to two Hertz. So it just goes back and forth so that they get,

Uh, connecting electricity between the web spaces. Is that how you’re doing it, um, for web spaces? So you’d be connecting needles together, or,

Yeah. So what I do is I take, I’m trying to get the camera oriented, uh, it’s backwards area area. So, you know, what I do is I get into all the web spaces and then I tend the needle. So I take all four [inaudible] and I put one clip on there. If I’m using, if I’m using the ITO, I might do that at, um, I might do that at like, with the black one, because the black leads a little stronger, stronger uneven, uh, stem, so that, because I’m in more sites, I might need a little stronger stimulation. And then I usually wire it up to like kidney kidneys, seven ish, but kidney seven is where I personally seem to get the tibial nerve, most distal, tibial, nerve, most reliable I’ll hook those like, like that. And I would generally use a high, um, if the, if the patient is able to crank it up themselves, get seven, there’s still a fair amount of motor.

So if I’m doing that, you know, you don’t want to at a high, at a hundred Hertz, they’re just like not comfortable. So if I’m doing sensory only, I might clip it like two buff on one param and just get one, you know, to the medial, to, and the lateral to do at a high, high frequency, or I’ll clip it at a lower frequency. And I include kidney seven as part of it. Um, and have that, even if they have a slight motor contraction, and then if I’m doing high, I give them the box and let them turn it up. And if I sometimes I’ll do a, my, I use pantheons mostly. And so they have the option to run like an alternating, like one to two Hertz or, and then like a hundred Hertz. So it goes back and forth. So they don’t accommodate to the, um, they don’t accommodate to the stimulation.

Um, again, just a little more detail because otherwise where they’re going to ask the questions. So you are doing the baffle on the effect of the size, same side as the sciatica, right? Or are you doing both sides? Counter lateral?

I often will do both sides. I mean, I immediately, you know, it’s enough to do the one side, but you get some Asian, you know, if you’re having more, any less to the segment, then that’s better for the you’re going to get a better outcome. So that’s where a lot of them like treating the left to do for the right and on up to the down, all that sort of Neijing, uh, links, shoe talk, uh, comes from, you know, really.

And the last question to summarize the protocol. How long do you use the electrical steam that you mentioned? High-frequency so in the order of a hundred Hertz, but how long do you do it for,

I do it for really hot static. I like to do a full 20 minutes. I really, I want to, I want to overwhelm that segment with non nociceptive input. I mean, to the extent that they can stand it. So if they’re able to turn it up themselves, that tends to actually work better because it could be accommodation and then they keep raising it and accommodation, and then I might run to hurt somewhere else in the body, one to two Hertz just to help with the beta endorphin release, but you know, like a large intestine for stomach 36, something, someone somewhere else, uh, you know, stomach 36 is great. It’s part of the peroneal nerve part of L L five. So that’s gonna relate to the sciatic symptoms. So, you know, you can, you can use your logic, whether TTM or from like a neuroanatomical standpoint.

That’s amazing. I can’t wait to try it tomorrow. And, um, so, um, unfortunately all the time we have her today, um, if we would like to step study more with you, is there, are there any resources or any contact that you have, um, for our listeners to the viewers?

Yeah. Um, on the east coast, uh, I’m working with the, uh, Dow collective and that’s a D a o-collective.com. That’s with, uh, Doty, uh, Chiang and pony and teach with them as well. So that’s exciting. Um, and, uh, the other place to find me is on Facebook. That’s where I keep most of my classes updated and that’s, um, uh, facebook.com/omt Lac. So that’s oh, as, and then, and then this is Mary T as in Tom, then Lac licensed acupuncturist, uh, OMT is osteopathic pathic manual therapy. So that’s my thing. And then the other way is to, you know, reach out to, yeah, I’m pretty fine to on the web and I can put you on my mailing list.

Yeah. Awesome. Thank you very much for sharing your experience and wisdom with us. Unfortunately, that’s all the time we have today. I’d like to thank all the, uh, other viewers and listeners for joining us, and don’t forget to join us next week. Uh, our guest for our hosts for next week is Matt Callison and Bri.an Lau. And, um, thank you once again and have a wonderful rest of the day.


Chiang-AACBrown07212021 Thumb

TCM Infertility, Pain and Overall Wellness Geek-Out Session



However, the focus really is going to be on clinical and why it’s important to just keep learning and how neuroanatomy can advance your practice.

Click here to download the transcript.

Disclaimer: The following is an actual transcript. We do our best to make sure the transcript is as accurate as possible, however, it may contain spelling or grammatical errors.  Due to the unique language of acupuncture, there will be errors, so we suggest you watch the video while reading the transcript.

Again, thanks to the AAC, um, for inviting me to be part of their, uh, To The Point show. And my name is Lorne Brown. I’m a CPA, a charter accountant. I’m also a doctor of traditional Chinese medicine in Vancouver, BC, Canada, and I’m also trained in laser therapy and, uh, I run healthy seminars and today we’re going to have a special guest. Um, my colleague and friend Poney Chiang, um, Poney is an acupuncturist as well. Um, he’s a neuro Meridian and neuro anatomy expert. And so he’s been teaching on healthy seminars so we can understand the neuroanatomy and neuroscience of acupuncture, both the classical and mainstream. And we had a geek-out session. So Poney and I had a Geekout session a couple of weeks ago, and we decided to share this with you, and I’m going to tie this into practice management. However, the focus really is going to be on clinical and why it’s important to just keep learning and how neuroanatomy can advance your practice.

And so again, I want to thank Poney for joining me today. Um, and there he is great to have you here and we’re going to, we’re going to geek out again. What I want to share with you is low-level laser therapy for fertility, and I’m going to give you a very short version story, but this has been my focus. I think I’m one of their early adopters outside of Japan using laser for fertility. And I do combine it with acupuncture. Um, and the reason, um, I started doing this was I came across a paper, um, where a medical doctor, Dr sure. Out of Japan, um, he, he he’s a pain specialist and he would treat people for pain. And he had this technique, which is later, um, been dubbed the Oshiro technique or the proximal priority technique. And he did a lot of work around the neck area.

And, um, he would always treat this first, before he treated the local area where there was pain. And in the story, the true story that happened here is he was treating a woman who was 55 years of age with menopause for back pain. And so he would do this proximal treatment. Um, the purpose is to create blood flow everywhere because if you increase blood flow everywhere, it would go to the toe and you’d go to the back and this would help with the healing. And so he did this technique with her and lo and behold, not only did he resolve her vaccine, but her cycle returned, uh, she wasn’t happy about that. And he thought it was a, one-off go see your OB GYN, cause it could be something serious. Well, within the calendar year, he was treated another woman in menopause for back pain.

Her period came back. So what they decided to do in his, at the hospital is they did a very small pilot of about 74 women that were translating to English as severe infertility average age, 39, several years of infertility, um, many cycles of art assisted reproductive techniques. And about 23% of them became pregnant. And over 60% had a live birth rate. And this is from a very poor prognosis group. And then they expanded that study to 701 women and 23% got pregnant, 50% got it, had a live birth. And his thinking was the reason these women had an improvement in their fertility is when doing this technique around the neck. Um, it created a parasympathetic response, which they were able to measure using thermal photography and other lab tests. Um, it would increase blood flow everywhere, including blood flow to the ovaries and more blood and circulation to the ovaries, better follicular Genesis, and lo and behold.

This was the reasoning why they thought the improve the fertility in these women. So I had been working on my protocol and I’ve spoken to practitioners around the world that are experts in laser therapy and treating fertility. Some that are treating the endometriosis and they’re doing stuff around the neck. They’re doing stuff locally on the abdomen. There’s doing stuff on the sacrum as do I. And I wanted to know why for a couple of reasons, one is it’s important to communicate to the patients how this will benefit them. And also the, the, uh, IVF doctors I work with. They want to understand this from a Western perspective, it’s, they’re not going to learn Chinese medicine. And so it’s important for them to understand that from a Western perspective, here’s the small little practice management tip and then pointing is going to come in and I got some questions for him and we’re going to geek out.

The practice management to appear is because I became well known as an early adopter for laser, for fertility. And because I invested in these machines, just so you know, um, I have several machines machines, each one’s, um, about $25,000 or more. Um, and I invested in these and women before COVID, uh, were flying to my clinic to be treated by this. So it wasn’t something I was expecting, or it would happen, but because I separated or separate myself from the pack, in a sense, I was doing something different. I was doing acupuncture for fertility, but I was bringing in laser for fertility. And I was able to explain from a Western perspective, how this can benefit and become familiar with the papers and share this, this attracted both, um, Western doctors and the public to seek my clinic for these treatments. So here’s the Geeko part because it’s important to know you can’t just buy laser, start doing this.

You want to understand how to use it so you can keep using it better and patients have questions. And so we have doctors, you got to explain it. So if pony can come back on here, pony, I got some questions for you. They talk about this parasympathetic response and, um, for acupuncture. So I’m going share with you. They talk about the anatomical features, but what they did is they did points in the nuclear, the also pity area. So do 15 bladder, 10 gallbladder, 20 area. They did stuff to, to reach the vertebral artery. So gel 17, um, they did the carotid stomach nine, 10, and they wanted to hit a feature called this Dalai ganglia, stomach 11. And can you explain to us in pony, how is this? Cause this is something we could use on all of our patients. If it’s going to bring chief flow everywhere, um, specifically also for fertility, can you explain then why these points stomach 11, 9, 10 do 15. How is this going to engage a parasympathetic response and increased blood flow everywhere, including the reproductive system?

Sure. Uh, if we can have the slides, please would make it easier for us to explain. So when you’re doing points, um, on the occipital area, um, or looking at points at gallbladder 20 blurred, 10 points in this area are actually where, as you know, the cervical portion of the trapezius muscle goes there, you might not know about cervicogenic headache. Ty traps can give you headaches, right? But the attribute this muscle is interesting is that as the muscle innovated by a cranial nerve 11 spinal accessory nerve. And so when you put a needle in trapezius muscle, including points that Goldberg 20 bladder, 10, even Goldberg 21, um, you are stimulating the spinal accessory nerve. We used to think that spinal accessory nerve is truly a motor nerve, but now we know that it’s actually sensory and motor. So what that means is that as an African bring information back to the brainstem, back to the nucleus of this cranial nerve 11, and what’s interesting is that quite another 11th nucleus is right adjacent to the cranial nerve 10 nucleus, which is a Vegas nerve.

So it is known that there’s new Peters have interactions with each other. So this is why simply needing points that GABA are $20 21. Anything that is supplied by the spinal accessory nerve will have effect from the cranial 11 nerve nucleus to the or 10 biggest nucleus. And as you know, Vegas, 90% of the body’s parasympathetic response. So we can easily explain how points in the back of the neck can achieve this increase in parasympathetic state and therefore more profusion to all the glands and organs of the body. Now ask for points in the front. Um, uh, while you’re looking at here in the dissection picture, uh, it’s got the throw in the south big is all removed and D these long, um, cell tissues that the, um, the probes are supporting or raising, it’s called a, it’s called a cervical sympathetic ganglion. So, um, uh, if you look at the diagram on the, on the bottom, you’ll see there’s actually three cervical sympathetic ganglia superior, cervical, middle cervical, and thoracic also know as the Stella, as an a star.

So, interesting thing is that every single one is Ganga are actually an acupuncture point. That’s already been passed down to it by ancient acupuncture or ancient acupuncture anonymous. And when we stimulate these points, if we can look at the Sutton, the next slide, please, there are correspondence like given to us in terms of the point. And the exact ganglion does involve without going into way too much detail. Okay. But you should want to gangs are actually supplied nerves to the heart, the cardiac. So they each one of these gangs individually and collectively supply the cardiac nerve that controls the contraction. So if you are modulating this, you are improving cardiac output. Therefore it’s an increased blood flow to everywhere in the body. So this is likely how the Ashira protocol was able to, to, you know, inadvertently increased fertility, you know, even though the focus in our neck, but because it’s affecting the civic center Ganga, which is known to control the, the, um, the heart rate, it’s increasing cardiac output, which gives you blood everywhere, including reproductive organs.

Brilliant. And thank you for that. And this is, so this is why I think, because it’s on the parasympathetic, I think of cheapo like liver cheese stagnation would become tight and constricted and that’s authentic. And when you’re in parasympathetic that she’s flowing freely, which is probably why most of the research, the women 38 and under seem to be benefiting most from laser fertility, because they’re the cheese stagnation type. And once you get into the 38, plus we’re probably getting more into the kidney in, in young deficiency. And, um, maybe we’re not able to, um, with the laser therapy do enough for them. And so this is my working theory. I think a lot of the women we’re seeing that we’re helping have a form of stagnation in Stacy’s. The laser therapy has other benefits, too. It helps regulate inflammation. Doesn’t Al not only just increased blood flow and it does help improve the mitochondria functions.

So there’s all these benefits back to our neuroanatomy. So myself included, a lot of people started wanting to put the lasers closer to the ovaries, but in the laser world, um, red and infrared light, it’s really difficult to get that kind of light to the ovaries in the Oshiro group. They did the neck and they also did a point near when 12, they didn’t say why I was thinking, they’re trying to hit the ovarian artery because it kind of comes off the aortic arch near there. But you’re telling me from a neuro anatomy perspective, there’s a different level. And, um, can you tell me why there might’ve been benefit from then doing the, the red 12? Is there any reflex points or anything happening in the abdomen that we’d want to target and before you go, they’re pointing. I just want to share that where we’re at today is we want to do the approximal points.

We want to get the blood flow. We want to hit some lymph nodes that are feeding the abdominal area. And I want to talk about the lotto gene, a lot of non Chinese medicine, trained, um, laser therapists, um, always treat the nerve roots coming out that are innovating the area they want to effect. So this is kind of what I want to cover with you today from a neuro anatomy, neuro Murray and acupuncture specialty, what are we doing from a Chinese medicine and Western perspective? So is there any benefit doing something locally that’s going to help, um, with the ovarian function and uterine receptivity, keeping in mind when we talk about the needle or the laser, the laser is not going to reach therapeutic level. It’s unlikely. It’s going to reach the ovaries and you’re not going to put a needle in the ovaries, right? You don’t want to do that. So, so what is happening here? What are we doing when we do these lower abdominal points that can be impacting the reproductive system, or were they just having happy thoughts? And there is no real benefit from the run 12

Area. Uh, if we can have this slide with the sympathetic and parasympathetic, uh, innovations of the spine. Um, so while we get that ready, let me just explain that. Um, in Chinese medicine, we’re talking about ying and yang, visual, Oregon in Western medicine to have a similar and how we try to achieve healthy balance in Western medicine has similar notion of homeostasis where you’re trying to balance the parasympathetic and sympathetic nervous system. Yes, that’s the mind. And so it’s, to me, they’re very analogous concepts in Eastern medicine, and we’re trying to balance any, obviously Oregon in Western medicine, we’re trying to achieve sympathetic comparison, like balancing short and, and, and the other student is that each organ has both sympathetic and Paris, the next innovation. And they both do their job to encourage ensure optimal function of each Oregon. So if I can draw your attention to the left side of this diagram, what you’re seeing here is the spinal cord. And those little dots are horizontal lines that are coming out from the blue dots. And the blue lines represent parts of the sympathetic chain, which is, as you may recall from square thoracic or lumbar. So it’s [inaudible].

And so when you look at where those nerves go to, they go to various types of, of, uh, uh, plexus in gangland then, which then subsequently control the blood flow to various organs. So, um, as you know, a lot of the, the, um, uh, fertility related points, um, um, uh, they took on shirt for on the actual point, um, stomach 29, which was supposed to mean gray line is returning the period, right? So these points are located in the lower pelvic area. So where, um, so how can we account for this based on this, um, understanding of the sympathetic person and never system, if I can draw your attention. And if we really hone in to the very, very bottom blue nerve on the left side, it’s called a lumbar spine secondary. And, and, uh, so if you have a laser there, right there, perfect.

And you can see that, uh, from there there’s one more pink, red color that comes out, it’s called a hypogastric plexus, right? And then if you look at the very, very bottom word in the gray box, it says reproductive organs. So that means that if we can trace the report organs, blood flow to the hypogastric plexus, which by tracing one level up to the lumbar spine CIC nerve, and then back to level L one L two. So if we look at the points that are in that area, it’s going to share in stomach 29th. And, and it’s only Tanya that if you look at the indication though, I have to do with, with fertility, with men seas, with reproduction. So we can explain that because those points in that area are exactly Lyn 12 region of the, of the, of the dermatome. So by, by putting nerves there, we are having what’s called reflexive effect.

The needle stimulate T 12 L one nerves, which travels back to the spine. Does these nerves wrap around from the spine around to the interior as aspect of the body, does the Afrin sensation and back to the spine and reaches is corresponding T 12 L one segment. Now each second, each second response has sensory motor, as well as sympathetic, um, uh, types of innovation. So we call this reflex effect. Once the Afrin reaches a segment, it was sent information to the corresponding autonomic levels, which in this case are digs, precise, autonomic levels of the, of the body that controls the, uh, cemetery output or the blood flow to these reproductive organs. So it is by, it seems that we’re affecting and locally, we are, we are in tenders that were needing over the ovaries for example, but the information is going back to the spine and then the spine, um, passes it through the sympathy, Oregon, which then sends it back into the Oregon. It’s effecting it’s instantaneous, but it has undergone a complete full stroke. It, but it happens so fast that it’s, it seems as if there’s an immediate effect. And

So, um, when you’re the, whether this spinal segment segments that are innervating the ovaries and cause, um, I’ve heard also in some of the literature I looked at, they were talking about like T nine T 10 and T 11 innovate, the old reason, S one S two more for the uterus. When you mentioned stomach 29 and Z gong, you’re saying that’s more like T 12 L one. And we, when we did get go, you did say there’s like a Christmas tree effect. So when you’re needing below, you’re still getting a lot of these or lasering. You’re getting those above, but can you just clarify what you’re seeing there? What’s from this diagram, what’s innovating the old reason what’s innovating the uterus from the spinal second.

Okay. So if you were to, to, uh, look at the Y to Jaggi points or the, uh, the back shoe points along the spine, um, re recall what we were about the sympathetic chain is [inaudible] right. So all two of bring us to 2023 level and our be 20, 22 levels. I say bladder 2023 level is two. And then bladder 22 is our one. So, um, now we’re talking about what’s called the dorsal Ramiah of the spinal nerve, as opposed to the veterinary. And I, when we were talking about needing the pelvic area, those are the parts of the spine of that came forward. They call the interior Mr. Ventura, but there are ones that go back to integrate the muscles around the spine. And those fellow doors are in mind. So if you needle L one L two, which happens to be bladder bladder 22, 20 23, and these are the points that we would use anyway, because there can use reproduction in Chinese medicine, right? Actually, probably that you need to read it by KMS, but if you need, at that level, you are still at L one and L two. So the same simplest reflux applies. It’s just that now it’s happening through the posterior branch as opposed to the ventral branch, but at the same permission will ultimately go back to the same segment, L one L two and then cross into the sympathetic, uh, aspect of the, of our body. So

Again, beautiful Chinese medicine that we have, the front middle and the back shoes. If somebody is facing, we can treat anterior, we can do the Z gong and stomach 28 are still make 29 points and have that reproductive effect at the point say, or if we’re treating them face down, we can do the back Shu point, like we know for a kidney for reproduction. Um, and again, same segments so we can dress it, both sides. So the Chinese medicine approach understood this 2000 years ago. And now with neuroanatomy, we can explain why you can do it face up or face down, and you’re still having that effect. Am I, if I’m understanding

You correctly? Absolutely. And there’s this one tiny, tiny bit I can add to that is that we’ve been talking a lot about what’s going on to lifestyle as a slide today. Let’s take a look at the right side of the slide, which is a parasympathetic. So it, um, ultimately when we need all yes. If, if we can just focus on the sacrum area on the, on the bottom where the black two black lines coming out. Yeah. Or that area right there. So oftentimes I get asked, um, you know, if you’re stimulating a SIM and say, isn’t it that gonna reduce blood flow and, um, and, uh, uh, we only want to stimulate the parasympathetic that that is correct. But what we do know from a lot of studies in acupuncture is that, um, uh, the ultimate net gain effect that acupuncture is parasympathetic. It, even though it’s limit points are supposed to more sympathetic is a very short transient effect.

It’s almost like the body knows that, oh, I’m feeling more sympathetic. Now I can activate my own homeostatic mechanism to go towards parasympathetic. So the end result will always be parasympathetic. So you can think of it as using the young, to treat a year in Chinese medicine kind of concept. Okay. Obviously they are obviously see within each other. So inseparable concepts. Now let’s take a look about a, the Paris Stemmet idea. We would need a formula that directly. So those are your, your, your, um, your secret for MRR points, but our 31 32 33. So if you look at the bottom, uh, of the right side of the, this fixture, um, you’ll, you’ll see that these, um, these nerves also supply the reproductive organs, right? You see that there’s college coming up from there, from the black lines on there, right? It’s not just a red lines on the left.

That would mean that we put our origin as well. So just, if you want to be super finicky, theoretically speaking, or anatomically speaking, it’s only as two and three and onwards would have the effect. So that means [inaudible] or bladder 31 is not as important here. So if you have the ability to palpate the real for a minute and try to put the needle into that for, to affect those points, you want to target as to it onwards. So if we can have the very first slide, we can jump to the very beginning, we get it, we get a sort of inside out view. There it is. The inside our view of what happens in the sacred and the inside. And you see all those nerves and all the blood vessels over there, they actually communicate with each other. So when you put a needle into [inaudible], we are increasing the parasympathetic control of the pelvic organs and blood flow directly.

Now you may look at this and realize that, oh, this is kind of like the Sonic nerve, right? These nerves become the side nerve NSI. And it goes all the way down to the back of the thigh, into the lower leg, even down to the foot area. And what’s the point that’s most commonly associated gynecology in all the Chinese medicine, spleen six, right? As many as six lies exactly on the site, Agner trajectory. So even though you may not be needing the second directly by noodling spinning six, you are liking kneeling in the sacrum indirectly. What’s the message comes back to you because the sciatic nerve is, um, as, um, uh, alpha syn two segments. So crosses these these segments so that you will have a direct impact on the blood flow to of the, of the pelvic organs, reproductive organs, your genital organs, and so on and so forth.

So these things that we learned from, from traditional indications that passed down, there’s absolutely no reason to doubt they do what they say they do. It’s just that we don’t have the understanding to catch up with these information. But, but, uh, another thing is that if you understand this new anatomy, then you can actually create more points. So points like, can you four, can you, five are all derivatives the Stagner and, and, and you can see why they will also potentially be very effective for treating fertility issues and you can create your own protocol. So once you understand the new UNM, I remember

When we had our offline geek-out session, you’re sharing how spleen six, the nerves, a little bit deeper, but easier to reach it, like kidney three or kidney six, because of this reflex point. That’s what you’re talking about now.

Yes. So the, the, the, the part that say that reaches that immediate aspect, the ankle is called the posterior tibial nerve. So if you go through Spain stage, they actually got to pass through a muscle called the Fetzer digitorum muscle, you know, to get to the dinner. But if you go a little more distant with when the nerve becomes more superficial about, at the level of CUNY 3, 4, 5, 6, those points you can think of it as, like, can you say X four or more for year and aspect, right. Can you three for CI aspect, those points are still derivatives of the sagging there. So the message was still go back to the, to the S two S level two to improve circulation of that pelvic pelvic organs. So there’s no re ne no reason why you can, it cannot add another level of TCM on top of that heel. How do you decide within Spain six or seven spins three? You know, they are all Threadless. I never anatomic issue at work, but, you know, six might have more yin indications or is three might have other indications, you know, or you want to use a more of a, a low point. Like, can you afford, for example, so you can, how they’re actually not mutually exclusive. You can actually refine it further with, with a TCM lens on top of it.

And this is why, um, I like studying with pony and why I recommend pony. Um, I remember one of your course on healthy seminars, you’re talking about these nerve roots and having this discussion about the sympathetic and parasympathetic and how you mentioned you’re reaching the sympathetic, but it has this parasympathetic effect, because I think you were mentioning, there’s like three that were coming out from the dorsal root. Um, you reached the more superficial one, but when you reach that superficial one, they’re like their siblings, they’re all affected. And therefore you’re getting that parasympathetic as well. That’s right. And so, um, tying this together then, um, I just want to share with you that, uh, the Chinese medicine aspect of it, it just blows my mind still how brilliant it is because we’re choosing points based on a different paradigm. However, in modern times with this incredible technology, it is explaining it is validating these points.

And I know some of my colleagues are purists and they don’t want to know anything about the west. And I like to know as much as I can about both. Um, because as you’ve shared, it can help direct your treatment in choosing your points. And what’s really valuable in clinical practice is my patients and the doctors. I work with the medical doctors. Um, they’re not going to understand the back Shu point for the kidney, but they want to understand how this nerve root is going to innovate the old reason. If I do this, we know there’s a parasympathetic response, which brings more blood flow there or activates this organ. That’s important to them. And so this is why I highly recommend the integrative approach. It does not mean forget about what you’ve learned and forget it, what acupuncture. It really is going deep into the classical and going deep into neuroanatomy, but with a trained acupuncturist, like pony Chung, because you pay tribute to both medicines, you don’t dismiss one or the other, and you’re constantly the two which helps with clinic, you know, myself.

Um, I’ve invested, it’s almost embarrassing. I was looking, I have over $260,000 in lasers in my clinic now we’re, we have many practitioners, so patients want it. So we need to have these lasers. And I don’t know how many thousands of hours I’ve invested so I can keep, um, modifying how I do it. So I can be individualized and improve our, our approach. And as you can see, I’m talking to people like pony. We did this conversation, a version of this offline. And then I just said, you know what? This was so fantastic for me. I want to share this with everybody. And so this is why we came on and did a mini version of what we did already, because I think this is really beneficial. And so my message here is not to be scared of other things like laser therapy. It’s incredible how it’s transforming my practice.

I use both the acupuncture and the laser in my practice for fertility. Um, and so that’s been valuable. It’s made patients, um, want to, um, come to my practice for these treatments. And I keep learning and talking to people like pony, um, cause it gives you the confidence and the key is to be able to communicate why you’re doing what you’re doing. And so I’m not suggesting that you just violate her and start to do it. Um, just like you wouldn’t want somebody just to do a weekend acupuncture course and start doing acupuncture on people. You do want to under, you want to get good quality lasers and you really want to understand what you’re doing so you can play with your protocol. I have to give another big, thank you to pony again, for the cadaver work you’ve been doing. And just the deep dive you’re doing in neuro Meridian acupuncture. Um, and, and bringing this to the masses again, you can study with pony on healthy seminars.com, um, and a big thank you to the American acupuncture council for inviting me to host this show. I want to let you know that your speaker next week will be Poney, Poney Chiang also hosts a show on the AAC. So tune into the ACC and you can listen to Poney Chiang and hear what he’s going to talk about on his show. Uh, thank you all very much and Poney, Thank You. Have PTT anytime. All right, till next time

ChiangAAC03312021 Thumb

Acupuncture Sports Medicine with Whitfield Reaves



His experience includes the 1984 Los Angeles Olympic games, as well as numerous track and  fields cycling events nationally for the last four decades, Whitfield is the author of the well-known practitioner’s manual, the acupuncture handbook for sports injuries and pain, which one of the few texts integrating traditional Chinese medicine, acupuncture, orthopedics, and sports medicine.

Click here to download the transcript.

Disclaimer: The following is an actual transcript. We do our best to make sure the transcript is as accurate as possible, however, it may contain spelling or grammatical errors.  Due to the unique language of acupuncture, there will be errors, so we suggest you watch the video while reading the transcript.

Hi, welcome to this week’s American Acupuncture Council’s Live uh, Facebook podcast show. I’m your host Poney Chiang of neuromeridian.net from Toronto Canada. Joining us today is our special guest Whitfield Reaves who is joining us from the central coast of California and he will be relocating into Santa Fe. I’d like to begin by giving you a biographical description of, uh, uh, Dr. Reaves. Uh, Whitfield Reaves is one of the leading practitioners in the field of acupuncture sports medicine. He began clinical practice in 1981 as specialized in the field of orthopedic and sports acupuncture for 40 years. He is licensed in California and his earned doctorate Oriental medicine degree in 1983, his thesis acupuncture and the treatment of common running injuries demonstrated that TCM could address many clinical issues in sports medicine. His experience includes the 1984 Los Angeles Olympic games, as well as numerous tracking fields cycling, either events nationally of the last four decades, we feel is the author of the well-known practitioners manual, the acupuncture handbook for sports injuries and pain, which one of the few texts integrating traditional Chinese medicine, acupuncture, orthopedics, and sports medicine. He’s also the director of the acupuncturist sports medicine apprenticeship program. Thank you very much for joining me. We feel it is an absolute honor,

And it’s a pleasure for me, Poney. It’s great to see you.

Um, I have, um, uh, some questions for you today and, um, uh, I want to keep it pretty relaxed and casual. Um, mostly wanted to hear about your experience, um, in sports medicine and you know, your clinical experience, especially, I was wondering if, um, you can tell us how you ended up specializing in the field of sports medicine.

Well, I started practice in 1981 in February of 1982. I had a marathon runner out for run run in my office and he had Achilles tendonitis and he asked me, you know, can you, can you help? And I said, of course, and of course I had never treated Achilles tendonitis. I had never had a teacher that taught me how to treat the Achilles tendonitis, but that was, you know, I was new in practice. It seemed like the logical thing to say. So I treated them. I was back from China. So I treated them China style, little bit Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday. And then on Sunday he ran the mission Bay marathon. He won the race. I had no idea. I didn’t even know him. You know, like, well, how fast do you run your splits? And what’s your personal best? And what are you training on this? I didn’t know any of that stuff, you know? And so that was Sunday and this was 1982. This was two years before the Olympics in San Diego. This was in San Diego, California, San Diego was filled with Olympians training, trying not to be in Los Angeles, but to be close Monday morning, he brought in busloads of athletes, you know,

From, and

Literally I became a sports acupuncturist overnight and it was of that moment. I didn’t choose it. I was always athletic. I love sports. And it just happened. And really looking back, I didn’t know anything as, you know, the education for graduation to be an Lac in 1981, included nothing very precise about sports acupuncture. So what happened? And I had to teach myself while we went.

That’s a fantastic story. So I guess it’s all, all word of mouth from a high-performance athlete from there. Yeah, that was it. Yeah. Um, well, unfortunately it’s sad to say even to this day, there is still not very more sports medicine curriculum, your average Chinese medicine school. Uh, so, uh, so unfortunately that it has changed, but thankfully we have, uh, mentors and masters such as yourself, which can help us pre-state yet. Now I wanna, um, um, uh, kind of put you on the spot a little bit. Um, I want you to tell us what do you find you get the most consistent results and when it comes to sports medicine now, what do you find? It’s one of the more complicated, more difficult, uh, conditions for you to treat

Well? Um, I would say consistent results for me come with the shoulder, come with tendonitis, infraspinatus, uh, the acromioclavicular joint, much of the shoulder. I find that I can just do really well with the techniques that I’ve learned and, and put together over the years that, I mean, unless you have greater than a 50%, all the way up to a full thickness tear of a, of a rotator cuff tendon, you can get great results in better than any other tradition. I know better than anything PTs can do or, or, or exercise signs or anything. Cause we can get into those discover chromium space area effectively with the needle. So I’d say that’s my favorite.

This has been great and reassuring to hear because for a lot of practitioners, they are afraid of shoulder. I have an associate in my clinic whenever a shoulder case, just like she gives it to me. So I’m very happy to hear that you, um, at that, that is possible to become really, really good to get great results in the shoulder. Cause I know a lot of people lacking that confidence because sorry to interrupt you, please continue

The worst. The things that I don’t like are places that are hard to needle. I don’t like an inguinal hernia or inguinal strain. I don’t like the groin. I don’t like need doctors and I don’t, and I don’t like the armpits, you know, the awareness, you know, I would prefer to send them out for manual therapy. Uh, and so as I would prefer to send out for manual therapy and those are conditions that I think acupuncture does, you can’t get precise access. Cause my needling is all about precision, you know? And you just can’t be precise, kneeling into an armpit, you know, or what have you. So, uh, that being said, there are people who can needle the subscap pretty effectively. I don’t like I don’t teach it. I don’t like it.

So I see. Yeah. Um, well I, I can relate, um, those places definitely are trickier. And of course you just, sometimes you have a deal with like, uh, you know, body hair and things like that. It’s, uh, it can get a little messy. Um, um, and yeah, I, I have found, uh, you know, growing issues to be, uh, relatively difficult to, you know, I’d rather treat, um, at least tendonitis than deal with the growing street. Um, you shared us with it as a great story.

Okay. I got to tell you that you became my hero.

Well that’s

When, what, when I use this technique of using needling small intestine nine, uh, with three-inch deep, deep, you know, all along the act below the axle and I use it for shoulder joint dysfunction, and I never could understand we’re not really going into the infraspinatus or the Terry’s minor. And I would do a corresponding point on the anterior side and I never really knew why they worked cause we weren’t really going into a muscle. And when I was looking at one of your webinars and you showed that branch of the nerve here that goes into the shoulder capsule, can’t remember if it was the anterior, the posterior or both. I went, that’s why it works. It’s a neural explanation and you became my hero. So,

So that means a lot. It means a lot. Uh, I was not expecting that at all. I mean, you know, I, I, you’re definitely a giant the field and I, you know, I, I studied your work very in depth and uh, so it’s actually a great, tremendous provision for me to, to have you on my show today. And, uh, so I really I’m just floored by your, by your generous words. Thank you very much. Um, no. So you shared it with us a really awesome story about how you got into, uh, the field of sports medicine. Would you mind telling us, um, a recent success story to something that was especially memorable that you can, um, chose, inspire our fellow listeners?

I’ll go back to the shoulder. Uh, I had this boy who had had a pretty severe motor vehicle accident 10 years ago, and she’d had a fracture and humorous, uh, up the proximal end and, and, uh, so they dealt with the fracture and, and, but the opposite shoulder had always heard her and it never got any attention because of the fractured side and the opposite shoulder was, uh, the seatbelt and shoulder. So something had happened in there and I, uh, I evaluated it. She had a positive arc of pain, so it with a D AB duction, she had impingement right into here and she was going and she had weakness on resistant AB duction. She had a weak, uh, turned off, right, inhibited supraspinatus with a positive impingement test. So something was going on inside of here, uh, with the 10 men and what have you.

And it just smoldered for 10 years and nobody had paid attention to it. She was leaving in two weeks to go to the Caribbean, uh, to, to, uh, take, uh, uh, uh, to sail. And she was going to be the captain, you know, ahead of the boat. And she needed to get her arms up like this for the wheel and for the lines and all that. And, and, and I said, well, two weeks, you’ve had this for 10 years. So she said, give me everything you got. So I went in at L I 1645 degrees of bleak, lateral and threaded under into the subacromial space needle and kind of toward [inaudible] superficial to the supraspinatus tendon, deep to the S to the boney, you know, a, a chromium. And I felt it going through these layers of scar tissue. I could just feel the springiness and I pushed through, and we, and we had maybe five mechanical strikes of, of scar tissue and fibrosis underneath here. She aggravated for, for seven, eight, nine days. I couldn’t treat her because it was so aggravated. She came back. Finally, we had three days left ago, she had no positive and, uh, impingement test. And the only thing that was left was that her muscle was still inhibited. We needled small intestine, 12, the motor point of, or the muscle belly of the supraspinatus. And she was seated. I got the needle in, into the muscle and, and within five seconds she turned green and

Yeah, that’s definitely a very memorable story.

Oh my God. Well, so we brought her up and we got her all fixed and then I’ve retested, it turned off five seconds of needle into the supers place. It turned on that muscle and she was 100% fixed for the rest of the time that I knew her, you know, and the second treatment was a five second stimulus to small intestine 12 and it just went, wow. So I didn’t need to put that needle in there for 30 minutes and do all this stuff fixed. So that was good.

That’s very, very cool. Um, and I like the fact that you’re not afraid to share some of these, um, slightly, you know, less than perfect stories. Right. She aggravated her, but sometimes as a healing response, she passed out, but you know, things like that happen. Right. So, um, yeah. So all of them are respect to you for, for, um, sharing these, uh, sort of less than perfect stories. But I think, um, mature practitioners without experience, understand that this part that’s part of the, you know, part of the day-to-day bread and butter, and that is, uh, amazing. Okay. And of course she won the race as well. Right? All your patients in races, right.

And it pricked the boat and they didn’t die. If practitioners will take the point of view that there is no such thing as a wrong needle, you might put a needle in and it might not go to where you want it, but it, but it tells you, okay, I need to direct this over here, or I need to needle it over there. Or I’m not on the band. I didn’t get a [inaudible] or whatever your criteria is. If you, if you, if you, there’s no such thing as a bad needle, there’s just some needles that just guide you to a better placement. Then, then you’re not always feeling like you’re a failure. You use those failures to get you more precise and it’s, it’s a much more positive relationship to the experience. So, yeah.

Yeah. What you’re, you’re, you’re saying is very profound when I have to kind of digest it and reflected about it. I’m sure it’s like, it’s not just going over my head right now. And there’s no such thing as, as a wrong needle. I have to, I have to think about that. Uh, but I appreciate that. Um, now I have the, because I, you know, I’m also interested in neurology, neurology and orthopedic aspects, and I encountered this with, um, you know, uh, new learners quite a bit. And some of them are, uh, hesitant to, to embark on a path to become great, uh, good at treating sports issues. Um, and, and it doesn’t have to be sports. It orthopedic issues right now, but it’s she’s athletes, but everybody, you know, um, everybody is, uh, has some repetitive chronic pain and due to repetitive strain. And so there’s sometimes a lot of overlap between the high-performing athlete and your typical sedentary type of desktop, uh, desk workers. Um, but I encountered some people are afraid to go into the field. I wonder if there’s any advice or words of encouragement. Um, I know you didn’t seek out to go into it, but it has turned out to be very rewarding for you, right? Any, any advice about people that are afraid or hesitant about going into this wonderful field?

Well, I, I think being afraid and hesitant is a really very beneficial emotion to take a look at because, because you’re not going to be very good knowing what you probably know already, uh, Meridian acupuncture is of very little value in treating orthopedics. Zang Fu is of almost no value in treating orthopedic and sports injuries. So you have to learn a new headset, a new way to think, you know, about what you’re doing, but it’s all doable. You can learn this. And there are plenty of teachers and you can, you don’t have to have one teacher. You could do a little bit from a number of places, learn from your neuroanatomy, uh, webinars. Learn from me, learn from that. Talisen, there’s just so many ways to get the information. So the, your fear should only be a guide to tell you you’re going to have to work.

You’re going to have to retrain yourself. You know, I had an occupier, I had a patient that came in and she said, I’ve got Achilles tendonitis. My family general practitioner takes care of all our, our coughs and colds takes care of the kids and all that six times nothing happened. So the patient came in, I said, okay, you have Achilles tendonitis. So when you get up in the morning, your Achilles tendon is stiff. And your first steps are difficult that as we know is a keynote symptom of Achilles tendonitis. It has to act that way to be Achilles tendonitis. And he said, Oh, no, I get up in the morning. And I feel great. It’s at the end of the day, that it’s a problem I want, okay, 99% chance, you don’t have Achilles tendonitis. You got the wrong diagnosis. This guy was a 1500 meter masters runner with the most beautiful body, 1500 meter runners just they’re gorgeous.

Right? They’re just beautiful bodies. You know, they’re not so bolt up as a, as a sprint or they’re not so lean as a marathoner. They’re just like, perfect, beautiful. So, so, uh, I did a pinch test of the Achilles and the pain was all the way down at the attachment at the Achilles bursa. He had Achilles bursitis. So I needled, uh, instead of the tendon, I needle down into the area of the burst. I’ve got some techniques for that. He came back five days later, he was 80, 90% better with one treatment. And the first thing he said to me, he said, there’s a difference between a general practitioner and someone who specializes in sports medicine. He just said that to me. And it made me feel so good because that is what we, that’s what we need to communicate. There is a difference. You know, you don’t go have brain surgery from your, your GP.

Doesn’t do brain surgery on you. You go to a brain neurosurgeon, you know, so the specialty is a beautiful, wonderful specialty. And if you’re drawn to it, you got to learn that you got to learn the language and you have to understand there’s orthopedics, but the next step over is their sports acupuncture. When you’re getting into sports medicine, you have to learn about the psyche of the patient, of the athlete. You have to have more, more attention to how they think and feel, and of course how they train, whereas with the PDX, you can get away without knowing a lot of that stuff. But there are similar the basis of orthopedic and sports acupuncture. The basis is similar with that emphasis of really trying to figure out what makes them do this and why are they doing this? And so, but it’s a wonderful field and it’s totally open. There’s no obstructions, there’s no barriers to entering. You can, you can, you can do fantastically in this field. So you’re welcome to come and join.

Thank you very much for that. Um, just to finish off with our interview session today, I was wondering if you can share with us your favorite acupuncture point, if there is possible to identify one of your favorite, one of your favorite points and how would you, uh, how do you recommend that we use it? Well, I think, you know what I’m going to say.

My favorite point, if I had only one point to do would be the extraordinary point. Jen claw, J I a N qua qua, uh, the claw, the is the, is the thigh and the glutes, the lower mid section five of the bodies, not just the thigh, but it’s, you know, probably includes the, the gluteus Maximus and all of that gen means strengthened. So the translation is strengthened the thigh or strengthened the block. Uh, this is in the muscle belly of the gluteus, medius it from the greater trocanter halfway, but from the greater toe canter to the iliac crest, along the shallow young line, take the mid axillary line, go straight on down to the Raider trow candor halfway between there and the iliac crest is Jen qua it’s post Steria to gallbladder 29. And it’s right on the, in the muscle belly of the gluteus medius, gluteus medius is what stabilizes the pelvis to keep that tilt from going and is crucial to establishing order in the lumbar vertebral segments of the body.

So that when I treat low back pain, I don’t treat Thai young. I treat shaliach. I go in from the side and treat the gluteus medius and deeper, of course, it’s the gluteus minimus. So you have two muscles with differing functions to get, bring about stability in the pelvis, so that the rest of the pair of spinal muscles have some consistency in their experience. They don’t have to be compensating because everything is moving because the gluteus medius inhibits from prolonged sitting. And we all sit too long for reflection along city, the gluteus medius, no matter how big and health, how well, you know, function, this is inhibits. And that big muscle just turns off and all you gotta do is needle it, turn it back on everything changes. So that’s my absolute favorite point that would, that would go up and affect everything up to the shoulder, posture, the neck, it wouldn’t go down and affect heel strike. And, and your whole cadence as a Walker or runner could theoretically correct everything from, from plantar fasciitis up to, you know, neck and head pain. I don’t know.

Wonderful. I didn’t know. I knew it was one of your favorite points, but I didn’t know it was such bright applications for it and the entire spine as well. And it makes a lot of sense that it, the smile has to compensate, you know, that you can have bad problems, they problems, right. And that all comes from having a nice stable, um, pelvis, pelvic bone. Cause after all the, where does the vertebrae sit on this, this other sacrum, which is rooted in the pelvis. Right. Wonderful. Um, so unfortunately this is, um, uh, we’re coming to the end to our, about our interview here. I was wondering if, um, people wanted to learn more about your curriculum or learn or study with you, um, are there some resources or some new information, a website or something that they can do to get in touch, get in touch with you?

Probably the easiest thing to do is go to my website, which is my name, Whitfield Reaves, not com. You got to make sure you spell it right. Wood field.com. There you can order my book there. You can see the links to my most current webinar program called mastering the treatment of injury and pain. It’s 40 hours. I just completed this right before the lockdown last year of all, it’s just all of my work put in 40 hours of webinars. Uh, and we also have some three hour modules of little special segments or portions of the body that we’re teaching still during this COVID era. Uh, and we’re actually starting to schedule some live stuff in the fall. So you can find all of that on my website, on the calendar page. Um, and, uh, and you can email me if you’ve got questions, email me, there’s a contact button. I’m happy to, to give you advice if you need some advice on how to proceed. So, yeah.

Okay. Thank you so much with, um, unfortunately I wish we have more time. I’m sure we can just talk on for hours and I can just, I mean, for me, I guess I can just listen to your stories for hours. Okay. Um, but, uh, I’ve always, that’s all the time you have today. So I thank you very much for joining, joining us. I think all the listeners for joining with joining us today, and don’t forget to join us next week posted next week is Chen Yen. And I’m sure she’ll have some wonderful information to share with everybody. Thank you and have a lovely rest of the weekend

Seal. Thanks for listening.


Nanopuncture with Clayton Shiu & Poney Chiang


Hi, my name is Poney Chiang from Toronto Canada. I met my opinion education provider from new everyday.net. Welcome to today’s live Facebook broadcast for American Acupuncture Council. My guest today is Dr. Clayton Shiu from New York City…

Click here to download the transcript.

Disclaimer: The following is an actual transcript. We do our best to make sure the transcript is as accurate as possible, however, it may contain spelling or grammatical errors.  Due to the unique language of acupuncture, there will be errors, so we suggest you watch the video while reading the transcript.

…Creighton and a bachelor of science in human physiology from Boston university and a master of science with traditional Oriental medicine from psychology, went into medicine. He received his PhD in acupuncture, and moxibustion from the Tangi university of treaters, Chinese medicine, and completed as well as residency at the first teaching hospital of Tangie. Any of you that are joining us today. My note that this is the hospital in which the movie 9,000 year old takes place, and the Clayton were close to you with their father and modern acupuncture. His name is Dr. [inaudible], who is the inventor of a neuro rehabilitation medical. She now KHL, um, Dr. Hsu is the creator of the narrow punches stroke and neuro logical religious rehabilitation system that he teaches across the country. Dr. Sushi. I mean the, uh, the father of modern acupuncture, invited Clayton to present his breakthrough research and then a punctured system at the 2020 international acupuncture conference in change in China, Clayton holds faculty positions at the American Academy of Chinese culture, health sciences in Oakland, and at the American college of nutrition and Chinese medicine, teaching short rehabilitation courses for their doctoral program. Thank you for joining us today. Clayton, how are you doing?

I wanted that. I’m sorry. I blanked out a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. Um, okay. Uh, would you mind telling us about your experience doing a PhD in tangy or what was that like?

Oh, okay. Um, so my time in tangent was about three and a half years approximately. Um, it was a great experience. Um, it was, it’s a hospital facility that’s quite large. Uh, they treated about 10,000 stroke patients a day, um, as a whole. So we were able to really see all kinds of different kinds of cases. Um, everything from like, like full paralysis of the patient to seeing like a nasal tube being put into, um, the patient to help them feed and also seeing how acupuncture can even take a nasal tube out eventually and give the person the ability to swallow and chew food again. Um, so because of all the different wards and different buildings, um, you could find almost any kind of case, um, and kind of track how acupuncture over the long-term can actually treat and help the patient. And I think that was a major advantage of being in that environment, whereas quite often in our own private practices in the States, um, possibly even Canada too, like, you know, maybe we might see a patient for one week or two months at the most.

Um, and it’s not treating like these kinds of severe kind of cases, but in this case, at the tangent first teaching hospital, we can track patients over six months, eight months a year, et cetera. So it’s, it’s, it gives you a wider, bigger perspective on, on an arc of how a person can heal versus, you know, when we have a private practice, we think, Oh man, okay, maybe in six sessions, something should happen or not. And so my, my perspective on time and also, uh, frequency for treating, uh, certain neurological disorders changed a lot after being there. So

Yeah, it must have been great to be able to see it sort of firsthand the CMB applied every day. Um, I would imagine PA patients are admitted to the hospital and begin acupuncture immediately, right? There’s no waiting for six weeks before they’re discharged from our Western hospital before they come to our private practice. Right. And they’re doing acupuncture every day, maybe several times a day.

Yeah. They, um, at a hospital like this for probably getting treated like at least two sessions of acupuncture, two more sessions of physical therapy, moxa, um, you know, Twain off like, uh, herbal medicines, you know? So, so in a sense you’re getting treated like six to nine times a day, or you’re very active. You’re not very complacent basically. And I like the rooms are, uh, in certain words they’re very big. So like, you know, Chinese are very family oriented, so there’s there’s room for your whole family to kind of sit there, you know, and be loved. So it was very nice to see that too. Um, but yeah, and it was, it was great to see like different, um, like the different directors and specialists in each ward, they were good at different things. So you could, you could pick their brain and ask them, like, how would they needle something? Or why is, why are you using, you know, spleen six this way versus that way, you know, et cetera. Cause that’s a lot of the devil’s in the details, you know? So, um, you puncture, so yeah.

Was like amazing. I’m jealous. Okay. Um, so, um, tell us about your style called nano puncture. What if it’s possible in a few words or a few sentences to give us a nutshell one nano?

Sure. Um, so after I returned to the States, uh, um, I want to give the system of what I was doing. Um, like a kind of a different name. One is it’s a play on words because nano is like the smallest measurable unit in most cases. So it was a play on words of Tai Chi, right? Because Tigie could refer to the smallest or the largest, um, kind of measurement. So nano is referring to like that we’re simply using like needles and the acupuncture, but we can have a large effect to treat like paralysis or treats speech issues or treat, you know, pretty miraculous things. Whenever you see like acupuncture do a very spontaneous kind of changes someone that’s still fascinates me today. Um, and then the other word origin of nano puncture was I was, I was treating a very famous, uh, prostate surgeon and he didn’t believe in acupuncture at first.

And so when I treated him, he could feel me manipulate the needle and I basically converted him. And so, because he was doing sensories, right. He wouldn’t, he wouldn’t need to like the best deference, which was a very small right on a tissue. So he was the first surgeon that kind of related to what needles can do because this needles are a little bit smaller than ours, you know? And we were saying that, Oh, the instrument’s so small. It’s like, it’s like, nano-sized right. So, so that’s how we came up with the word nano puncture. So, so in a sense, nano is like the smallest, smallest unit. Right. Which is like the acupuncture versus reviewing like a major machine or a major, you know, device like a gamma, like a gamma Ray or something like that. So, you know, we’re using just the needles, we’re able to get like an amazing result. So yeah. So that’s that for that. Um, and then mix them with a training from can Jen has just 20 years of like sports medicine and orthopedic experience and stuff like that. So, so we gave it that label. Yeah.

Actually I’m glad you brought up like gamma knife and things like that. Because as part of the material that you teach you to teach something called photo biomodulation and I take it, that sounds a lot like star Trek to me, which sounds really exciting. I’m nothing wrong against dark trade. I’m a trache. So tell me about what that is. Sounds like full-time for Peters.


Right. The photo biomodulation or, um, uh, could you repeat your question one time? Cause the, uh, the signal got a little slow.

Tell us what photobiomodulation is that, are you teaching your training program?

Sure. So, uh, what we like to do is even though we’re using, um, or using acupuncture and traditional needle manipulation methods, I like to combine modern technology with what I do. Um, it’s kind of the yin and yang to the practice. Uh, I do like photo biomodulation a lot because what, what sunlight is the chlorophyll red light is to the mitochondria of your cells. And so it’ll actually reset the P and bring energy and create energy into the cells of your body. So interestingly enough, for, for, for us as humans or animals, or, uh, or what have you like, we, we have tissue, right. And if you take this flash like off my cell phone, right. So this is every color in the spectrum, but if I put my finger over it, okay. Like this, right. You see a red light. Okay. And the reason why is that wavelength is about 610, uh, nanometer wavelength.

And that is the wavelength of the red wavelength color. And the red wavelength color is the color of light that can penetrate through our flesh into our muscles, which is what photo biomodulation uses. So that red light okay. Passes through human flesh into the tissue, into the cells. And so with photobiomodulation you can now pulse the frequency to adjust to things like gamma, brainwaves, or Delta brainwaves. You can, you can actually, um, increase the wavelength up to 700, 800 or near infrared light. Um, and when you do that, the neuron for infrared light spectrum will actually kill the viruses, including COVID. That’s why a lot of our devices today have like, you know, the cell phone, cleaner box or the air cleaner with the UV light, you know, and that’s, and that’s not a new thing. Anyone that has surgery before they do any surgery or down to work, they always flash a UV light device to actually prepare the room.


Um, so that’s, so what we do is we use photobiomodulation, we will put it in a tissue that’s maybe we knew we activated the nerves of that body, but we know the tissue isn’t is still weak and fatigued, so we can use red light that way. Um, there’s also devices that go into the nose, right. Or into the tongue area. And what happens is because of the cranial nerves, like cranium, or, um, like the old factory created owner and the nerves attached to the hypoglossal, you can simulate that rather than help, but speech and also with memory. So for like all commerce patients, there’s a great device called the V light, which there’ll be like a headset and like a little stimulator that stimulates gamma, um, for the speech, right. Gamma, wavelength, and then a nose clip. And the clip will shine into that, that area of the factoring of that has like thousands of little Villa.

Okay. And when I’ve, when I worked for end, that it’s actually helped patients, who’ve had like, uh, dementia and memory fog where actually seen noticeable improvements, you know, and that’s a great device it’s shining off, you know, a red light wavelength, um, up through the nose. So, so the great thing about, yeah, and it works great with acupuncture. So like, whereas acupuncture can move CHAM, blood, right. Things like red light and OXA charges, the blood gives it energy. Do you see what I mean? So one thing creates like the flow, the other thing creates, like in a sense, um, like March she, for that blood or for that tissue. So

Do you have a preference of doing, uh photobiomodulation first and then acupuncture or vice versa? Do you do them at the same session or the patients come in separate sessions for different modalities?

Oh, no. I always do acupuncture and like a full neurological assessment first, and then we decide if they need, um, photobiomodulation um, and the, you know, the thing is, is even though it’s great for like, if you have lower back pain, if what I can tell you is that if you have more of a pinpoint lower back pain, or if, you know, it’s affecting the disc, I would use acupuncture first and then do the photo biomodulation to follow up, uh, because acupuncture is still extremely precise. Um, and then once you get that flow, it’s good to have that. So we have like, would you have a light bag? We have the region pod at my office. Um, so we, what we did was created like a rejuvenation studio. So we may have, like, we may have taken acupuncture to a certain extent. And then we feel like, okay, we know everything is rewired and plugged in together, but you know, the power sources and high enough still send them a sample. Yeah. Like let’s, let’s use, use the red light or let’s use like give the person energy, you know? So then we may say, try to do like 10 sessions of red light and then come back. We’re gonna reevaluate. Um, yeah. And, and the interesting thing is, uh, photobiomodulation will actually work on the digestive system. It’s not just for muscles and tendons. Um, we’ve had people had, um, digestive issues and swelling or water retention and a lot of dampness and the red light actually works. Photobiomodulation works great for that. So

Cool. And I like your analogy. Um, you have to make sure things are connected properly first, before you try to turn off the power, right. There’s no point trying to power. It is not connected. So to that, presumably through acupuncture, we’re reducing the resistance of the, um, of the nervous system. So now we have greater flow, right. That’s resistance or more or more conductivity. Now, once that groundwork is done, now it’s ready to actually get some sort of tonification from the F for the red light. Then did I read, I can actually go somewhere and do do the things that it’s intended to do to help you understand. Thank you very much for that. Um, can you tell us, you know, um, how, how can acupunctures, um, benefit from learning from you or learning from, um, nano puncture?

Um, well, I think what I do is we do give like neuro anatomy lessons and education on what a stroke concussion or traumatic brain injury is. But what we do is I set them a [inaudible] program that I did from 10 and two different modules. So, um, what we’d like to do is bring back a lot of the classical knee manipulation, um, so that, you know, you can, you can manipulate something with your needle and also get like the different, like, effects that I learned through [inaudible] or, you know, if we need like heart one, we, you can feel, and you can even direct it into each finger, like the sensation of, of the nerve and stuff like that. So we train you on how to do that. Um, so we might take a section of the body, like the arm or the leg, and for one weekend for about 16 hours or, you know, more you’re constantly practicing and needling mix them with, um, I’ll invite, like just, I’ve never met and I’ll demonstrate how I would approach them in front of the crowd, so of acupuncturists.

So we, we treat them together, but I like to, I think there’s a lot of little details, um, even just, even just down to positioning. Right. And I know like your work is amazing with, within the Academy and dissection and stuff, and, you know, if you don’t position the body correctly, we can’t needle. Right. We can’t get into that sweet spot to manipulate the Meridian and the nerves and the tissue. So it’s, uh, I think that takes like, almost like, uh, like committed, coordinated group practice. It’s like, it’s like when you join a, like a tiger group and everyone’s trying to do form at the same time, you know, and right. One bird was done in one minute, the other people are done in 10 minutes and you, you tend to reverberate together. And so you can feel, you know, the training and what you have to do to the concussion part of it. And then there’s the hands-on part that I think makes our modules special. Yeah.

Can you share with us like a very memorable patient or a case where you, you know, um, feel that you couldn’t have helped them as well as you could, or her as well as you could have had, you know, incorporated let’s put about modulation or Chanel K char or something, some of the things that you’ve learned in China, or some of the things that you discover yourself, you know, private practice,

You mean, like was difficult. And then when we tried that technique and it made it work or something like that, like yeah.

Something inspiring for us. I never get tired of listening to those success stories.

Right, right. Um, yeah, I think, I think, uh, so there, there is quite a few patients, um, that, like, one of my things I left to do is, uh, speech and speech paralysis and dysphasia. And we, you know, we had a patient who, uh, had a very severe stroke about three years ago. And, um, he was, you know, he had salivation problems. It has salivation problems, he’s in a wheelchair. And, um, it’s a difficult case for anybody to treat basically. But at the same time, like just kept putting in different points, like non [inaudible] and angled correctly, like GB, Toni, and long glues, like [inaudible] and stuff now. And when it came close to, uh, to the election time, right. And this patient is usually he always like this, he’s kind of like his eyes are closed, you know, he’s very quiet. Right. And we would treat them twice a day. Like he stays at my office all day and we treat them twice with about a three hour window in between. But about like four weeks ago, when it came close to election time, you know, we asked them who, who we should vote, or, you know, he’s lying there and just goes by them like that, you know, like that,

Yeah. It was like the first word he spoken in our office that was like, you know, cause, uh, you know, it wasn’t a yes or no question. It was something you had to think about. And then later it kept going and we asked him, well, who should run for president? And he said, Dr. Shoe. Right. So we were like, like he could cognitively had a sense of humor. Right. Like he could put that together. So after that, and my staff were like, we just have mocks on the neck. We kept doing all this stuff in the brainstem. And, um, yeah. So it was, uh, it was pretty cool. So it was, you know,

Maybe, maybe you can sit in a nomination for you to become the surgeon general [inaudible] yeah.


Would you be able, um, to give us some tips or advisors, some simple technique or insight, uh, from your unconscious system so that maybe we can start applying a little bit. I know it’s not something that we can really learn over a webinar, but if, is there anything you can, any of tips and advice at the thing I, myself and our viewers would be very appreciated.

Yeah. I think, um, no matter which system you’re using, um, one of the things like Dr. Sherwin says is, uh, he was famous for, for using the principle or creating the principle of quantitative manipulation. Right. So, and what that means is is every 10 minutes we would do a technique like Sparrow pecking, or Phoenix flapping their wings on plants like neg Juan or Sonia and chow because he knew, and he could tell that like every 10 minutes you have to re stimulate the nerves. So my advice is like, it doesn’t matter if you’re using [inaudible] or not whatever technique it is. Like I would go back, we’ll just leave your patient there for like 30 minutes or 40 minutes or whatever, like every 10 minutes go back and just touch that needle. Uh, give it a little adjustment, no matter what your technique is, you know?

And then you’re going to see like a more drastic change in results because, because maybe the body responded that it plateaus and during the session, you can peak it back up. You know? So that’s something that he was very strict about. Like everybody knew that in this hospital, it was very interesting. And I knew that when, uh, one of the hospitals only had 200 beds, he would, like, I heard he would run out of the office, make sure someone manipulated the needle correctly, then run back to his, like, you know, to his conference. He was very strict on that. Yeah. And then also just trying to take care of your hands, whether you’re practicing Tai-Chi or sword work or something, like treat your hands, like they’re gold because, uh, you know, they’re your instruments, right? So you want to make sure you’re always like, you know, don’t, don’t just neglect them and, you know, leave them on a table somewhere, but treat your hand really good and keep them like help because when they’re helping and supple and soft, you can, you can get better results too. You can be more sensitive and it increases your, your tingly, which is like your listening skill, like the needle. So yeah.

To touch detention, the, uh, advisor about, um, sort of re stimulating the needles every 10 minutes or so she didn’t give us an idea, like what they’re doing, kind of w or in your practice that you saw, um, like how long was the average, uh, stroke. We have acupuncture session. And then within that timeframe, how many times are they going into re-stimulate?

Yeah, so, uh, I would say like the, the average time takes about probably about 45 minutes to like an hour for a stroke patient, because you’re going to treat the front for about 20 minutes and then the back for 20 minutes or a specific part of the body. Right. And then you should be like every 10, 15 minutes, you should be going back to manipulate the session. We usually say that like, one course of treatment would be 30 sessions at that hospital. Right. But a lot of patients in the word I was in, um, it was like an international word. So like patients who were living in that hospital for, for like several months, like they, they were getting in a special program, you know? Um, so, you know, in terms of like, it was very congruent to what we say about neuroplasticity. If you think about like, you know, we, usually we say, right, but if, if something’s pretty severely damaged, like if there is damage to the brain STEM or to some of the upper motor tracks, you know, you’re looking at 20 or 30 sessions.

And I think the important thing why I’m glad you’re a teacher and, and other of our peers are teaching, this is because, you know, this isn’t like spraining an ankle new, you need to explain to the patient a care plan and figure out, um, how long, and realistically it would take for them to recover this. That’s not going to be done in five sessions and five quick sessions, like, you know, um, so it’s important that you can guide and manage the patient on the law through that process. So, yeah, I mean, one of the inspirational stories is, uh, I want to add to that is like, for instance, uh, there’s a patient, um, and his name is Jim Wharton and he was the, he was the creator of active, isolated stretching. He’s he coached many Olympic athletes and runners. Right. And he had a stroke, uh, uh, about a year ago.

And he came into my office about a month after the stroke. And he was, he completely could not move. Um, you know, he had a gastric tube and everything he couldn’t speak. And I can tell you that one year later. Okay. Because it was a very severe stroke. Uh, well, within six months he was already eating without a gastric tube and he’s a healthy guy to amazing specimen person. But one year later he was riding the train, the subway train, and he gave me a stretching session. So he treated me instead of I treated him. Right. And it was amazing. Yes. But realistically,

Yeah, yeah. A year is nothing compared to having to get your life back. Right. I mean, it’s all, it’s all relative. Um, right. Thank you very much for sharing your experience with us about an Ana puncture before, if our listeners and viewers find out more information, do you have a website or some social media information? You can let us know so we can get in touch with you or get more information about your upcoming training sessions.

Sure. Um, it’s an amateur seminar doc. Um, and my clinic website is, is, uh, the shoe clinic.com too. So, uh, we’re gonna, we’re going to create some, um, new, online format so people can start learning the different modules. I’m teaching again. Um, cause of Irvin can’t really, um, easily meet face to face, but we’re going to create, we’re going to do the academic portions. And then later we’re going to have like group, uh, when everything is more in control, we’ll have like a group practical time too. So, but yeah, we plan to put a lot of the modules. And so it’ll be like upper extremity, lower extremity, speech paralysis, uh, concussion, like, um, but the first one will probably be the base. We call it the, the, the classical, uh, points, or I actually caught them. They’re all flash. So, because I believe the Chenelle

Cocho points, everyone should know and know how to manipulate so that at least you have something in your toolbox, but yeah. So we’re going to have that coming up in 2021. So yeah, very excited. Thank you very much, Clayton. It’s been awesome talking to you and for our listeners, don’t forget to join us next week. We’re going to have another exciting show with my cohost, Virginia Doran. Thank you. And take care.

Please subscribe to our YouTube Channel (http://www.youtube.com/c/Acupuncturecouncil ) Follow us on Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/acupuncturecouncil/), LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/american-acupuncture-council-information-network/) Periscope (https://www.pscp.tv/TopAcupuncture). Twitter (https://twitter.com/TopAcupuncture) If you have any questions about today’s show or want to know why the American Acupuncture Council is your best choice for malpractice insurance, call us at (800) 838-0383. or find out just how much you can save with AAC by visiting: https://acupuncturecouncil.com/acupuncture-malpractice-quick-quote/.


Yuan Qi Acupuncture – Poney Chiang & Suzanne Robidoux


Hi, good afternoon. My name is Poney Chiang. I’m one of your hosts for American Acupuncture’s live Facebook podcast show today. My special guest is Suzanne Robidoux, who is joining us all the way from Nanjing China. Dr. Susan Robidoux has spent over 20 years in China sharing when, after completing her master’s degree in us and, uh, went to China to learn Chinese language and martial arts, but ended up there until today.

Click here to download the transcript.

Disclaimer: The following is an actual transcript. We do our best to make sure the transcript is as accurate as possible, however, it may contain spelling or grammatical errors.  Due to the unique language of acupuncture, there will be errors, so we suggest you watch the video while reading the transcript.

And, uh, she was holding a five different distinct lineages of Chinese medicine and martial arts. We should continues to teach and practice. Do you have a PhD in nine gene? She practiced at the neurological hospital treating diseases such as major depressive disorders and post-stroke paralysis after completing her PhD. She spent the following year. So the classical medical systems from various Chinese medical masters to learn their techniques. She combines classical acupuncture, classical moxibustion gene Fong, which is the type of classical herbal system with diet, lifestyle and internal arts and teaching. She’s also the author of three different textbooks on acupuncture, Costco, hers, and Bhagwan thank you for joining us today, Suzanne.

Thank you for having me pony.

I would like to, uh, think you have brains today about, uh, a form of, uh, acupuncture to call it UN she acupuncture that I’d been hearing here in ravey views on, um, could you tell us a little about, about it? What is it, um, how is different from our standard TCM type of acupuncture?

Hmm. Yeah, it’d be my pleasure. Um, UNC acupuncture is a, it’s a classical type of acupuncture. Uh it’s based on the teachings of [inaudible] and the teachings of [inaudible] and from these teachings and from the information of [inaudible] and send you a gig, uh, masters simply, um, and other masters in Taiwan build a system, uh, based on using the cheesy that we have the essence T that we have in our dantian and use that she, in order to balance, um, the channels in our bodies in order to remove obstacles, to increase the flow, uh, but also to increase the general, uh, health care of our body. Um, the main goal of, of the system is using 60 points, 60 very specific points. Uh, we have a very specific needling technique as well, that, um, is used on all the points and using this technique, using these very specific points, we’re able to use the essence T to balance the body now by balancing the body, we increase healthcare. Uh, we improve vision improved memory, but most importantly, of course, it’s, it’s mainly used for quick pain relief. So pain relief relief on numbness, um, blockages, and sometimes I’ve used it also for, um, lack of motility of, of limbs, like a trip for trigger finger or frozen shoulder.

Interesting. Um, are there specific type of patient demographic that would best benefit from this or, or certain types of conditions you in your mind you go, Oh, this is something that you mentioned is absolutely going to be a great for or is broadly approvable.

Yes. The, the, the best patients for this technique is patients that are suffering from chronic pain. Uh, it’s good for many things. We also use it for internal organ, um, disorders, but it’s really best to use when people are suffering from chronic pain. Uh, the best is with when people are suffering from chronic pain, that is result of either a surgery or trauma, then you do think the dantian, she will be a lot more effective, a lot quicker. And within one to three treatments, we can get a great hold on that level of pain.

Okay. Um, so I’m understanding that the system has 60 different points and I’m imagining that it’s a complete different than your quote unquote standard acupuncture points, or are they, they overlaps, okay. They’re different. Okay.

Points that overlap, uh, in terms of location. But interestingly enough is that these points are on different channels. Then what the, the classical points that we learn in TCM. So, um, they are completely different than, than our TCM points location.

Yeah. So they’re not, it’s not, uh, you have the 12 Meridian base. These are extra, like extra, extra ordinary points. They’re outside the channel system.

No, actually they are on the channel. So the, our, our system is based, uh, the, it combines the channel theory combines, um, the tendon or muscular system. And, um, the points are on the channels on the same line, but different, um, locations.

Okay. And, um, um, would you be able to share with us like a clinical story or something that’s memorable, maybe perhaps with something that wowed you when you’re first learning this, how did you first hear about this? Something that will help us, uh, appreciate from your personal experience? Um, that was really, really memorable for you?

Um, sure. Um, I think we all learn acupuncture because we like helping people and release their suffering. And, um, what’s great about the system is we’re able to, uh, get a feedback from our patient. And that’s part of the treatment protocol with the system. You, you put one needle and then you wait for the feedback of the patient and that’s what guides you actually to, uh, know how to continue the treatment protocol. And so, um, I can share maybe one, one of the, uh, first case when I first started teaching the system, I was in Denmark and, uh, one of the participants, one of the acupuncturist was there and she volunteered, uh, to receive a treatment. And she had actually gone to learn acupuncture because of her chronic pain and what had happened to her. She went hiking when she was in her teens and her friend.

Uh, she was a very small lady and her friend had fallen on her and her and her backpack crushed her upper back. And since that moment, she had been suffering from a chronic, upper back pain and tension. It, it affected everything. It affected migraines, dizziness, uh, it caused her posture to be, uh, very stiff and abnormal. And through all the treatments she got through all acupuncture school, nothing released this pain. And by, by needling her according to UN she and needling the corresponding channels that were blocked, um, we were, I was able to needle her arm and follow the pain through, and the pain really left, uh, chronologically backwards, according to how the pain evolved in her body. And after five needles on her, um, arm on her lower arm, uh, her pain was completely gone. And so I saw her the day, the next day, and two days later, and her pain was still gone. Um, and when I came back to Denmark to teach the next year, the pain was still gone. So it is always a pleasure to be able to, to practice you. And she, um, patients that are suffering so much for so many years and just release their pain just by their, their energies, balancing the channels, and also engaging that, that lower dantian that we have.

That’s a great story.

It’s a great pleasure.

Um, so I’m hearing that you’re needling, uh, uh, on the arm is UN Xi acupuncture a form of, uh, more of a distal style acupuncture. The, these points are, uh, in the extremities.

That’s right. So the 60 points are on the extremities. However, what we’re using is that she in a low, lower dantian, and so we’re by using this, the Sochi, so a need, um, points below the elbows and the knees, um, is activating the chin, the lower dantian. And if it isn’t, then we have another technique in the lower dantian to, to fortify and activate.

Hmm. Sounds like it’s kind of a very, um, uh, uh, uh, deep rooted system that draws on like the venture level to, to, uh, to enable healing, I guess usually when we need a, would probably just, um, maybe working on the year in a way, not as deep as, uh, as, uh, as the name of the system implies. Um, I think it’s great that it’s a, uh, distal based system. There are obviously certain limitations or some, um, certain patients, um, you know, may or may not be, um, may have access to the torso, right. Uh, bedridden patients or wheelchair patients, you know, and also even like people that practice more and maybe perhaps communities that acupuncture where, um, you know, uh, they are more of a seated. And so, um, access to below the elbows and knees are more practical. So I think this might, might be, uh, um, very palatable to a lot of practitioners out there that, um, that this is consistent with their style of practice. Um, I know this is a very complicated system, uh, when us coming, but it’s a sophisticated system. And, um, um, but do you think it’s possible, there’s some sort of simple things that you might be able to share with us? Uh, like maybe a simple diagnostic or simple palpation, single needling thing, if it’s possible, if it’s not let me know, um, just to maybe let our viewers, uh, experiment with it themselves or try on a patient that’s, they’re having some clinical challenges with, is that something that’s possible to share?

Well, okay. So first I agree completely with you. It’s a system, first of all, that’s very easy to use if you’re using a community acupuncture or if you’re treating, um, paralyzed patients, you’re, you have access to the Bo the limbs of the body, a lot easier than the trunk or the back of the, so it’s very easy to use, and it’s fairly easy to learn since it only takes a few hours, you know, the 60 points. Um, and, and then you’re able to, to practice, once you learn the location, you’re able to practice the depth of the points, um, what I would be able to share. Um, it’s, it’s not that I don’t want to share is just that it’s, it’s really a complete system within itself. And, um, after learning the location, you have to learn the needling technique. And then, then the treatment protocol, which is very important that if you don’t follow the steps, then you might, um, cause further blockage within the patient’s body.

And so, um, what I could learn, what I could speak about is maybe the palpation technique, um, within the system we, for, for the earth points, uh, as we use a lot of the five element points, um, the earth points are always in between, um, the wrists and elbows. And so, and there are a long, uh, the channels. However, the locations of the channel in the classical texts, uh, are really, really close to the bone. And so this needling approach will be a lot about palpating along the area of the bone and developing that sensation or that sensitivity that, that we can develop as acupuncturist, not on the chin level, but also at a, as a channel level and really feel the condition of the channel. And once we can feel the channel on the side of the bone, then we’re able to really power pate where the blockage is. And once that happens, then we know exactly the location of the point. One of the things that my, my teacher always says is if, if we’re not feeling the entrance of the needle before we need, or we can’t needle the point. So basically it, what he meant by that is he, we really need to feel the entrance, uh, within the channel. So the, the fine, um, entry point before we actually use our needles.

Okay. Um, can you talk about, um, like, just give us an example of one point and then describe how describe the technique that would be used for that point. Are there different techniques for different points or, um, or is it a similar technique applied to the 60 points?

Um, the needling technique that we applied to the points is very similar. Um, we must reach the needle tip within the channel, feel the channel cheat, and then, uh, we lift the needle very slightly, give it space. And after that, we turn counter clockwise and counterclockwise, we’ll the flow of the cheek balancing the body, um, in terms of points. Sure. Um, what, what I thought of when you asked that question, as I thought about my brother-in-law, uh, that was suffering from very chronic elbow pain. So the, uh, entrance, so the heart channel, um, at the elbow was, was hurting him so severely that nobody could even palpated. It woke him up at night. It was very severe. And this occurred after a very severe disappointment and separation in his relationship. And, uh, he tried everything to get rid of it, but nothing was, was useful.

And so if we look, um, at this channel for us, the elbow, uh, the map that I have behind me separates the body in the five elements. So our whole body is not only separated in channels. It’s also separated in, in elements. And so as, uh, the elbow is the element of water I needed to reach, uh, on the corresponding channel. Uh, so the heart channel being shalion, uh, the corresponding channel being, um, shall young. So I needed the water point of shall yang on, um, on the opposite side. Uh, and as soon as I needled this pain, he felt a shooting pain down his arm, and I just stimulated the needle. So, um, it’s very close to gallbladder 34 area, but it, it isn’t. So once we learned the location of the points, uh, you’ll know exactly where they are. And as soon as the pain was gone, then that blockage had left through, uh, the heart channel. And, uh, the pain was completely gone. Now, this was about five years ago and the pain hasn’t returned since

Hmm. That’s really useful. Um, and then it’s a great success story. And also for me, I think, I think for the other viewers too, uh, gives us a sense of how you, um, are attempting to balance the energy and the thought process does involve, uh, so that that’s, uh, I think, uh, uh, thirsty people are starting to have a better understanding of, um, the, um, the, the, the process, um, of, uh, of the strategies that acupuncture. Can you tell us, um, how will learning, does wrenches of acupuncture compliment, uh, TCM staff acupuncture, or compliment people that do more to be used to stash score, stab acupuncture would do, is it something that they can super impose? Something they, uh, um, I don’t know, like, uh, sequences, uh, how do you have any thoughts on that?

Yes. Um, this, again, she acupuncture is used, it takes about 10 to 15 minutes, uh, in terms of using these points, we only use about one to five of these points, and afterwards, of course, we can integrate any kind of TCM acupuncture treatment that we would normally do with our patients. And so this, this treatment, we usually do it in the beginning to release that, that acute type of pain or the acute excessive blockage in the body. And afterward, it just makes the TCM treatment more successful or more acceptable and peaceful for the patient. Or we could use it at the end of our treatment when, when we’ve completed our treatment, but there’s still a nagging pain somewhere in the back or, uh, in, in the neck. And then we can use one or two points release that pressure release that blockage, and then the patient goes home without any nagging pain or residual pain. So this system is very well combined with any other acupuncture techniques that, that somebody might do. I always use it with TCM points. I use it with, um, scalp acupuncture and, and even with moxa, it integrates very well. It’s a, it’s a very successful tool to have as an acupuncturist.

Yeah. Sounds, sounds like it’s very versatile. Uh, um, obviously the fact that it’s, uh, in the extremities, um, it wouldn’t, it wouldn’t interfere with, uh, you know, Microsystems on the scalp or on a year and things like that. Um, thank you very much for giving us a little bit of a introduction. Are you, and shacupuncture puncher today. Um, if we want to learn more about your end sheet, are there some resources that you can recommend, Suzanne?

Um, yes. So unfortunately there isn’t any English publication right now, but we do teach the course online regularly. Um, it’s a one weekend course, uh, uh, accredited by, um, NCC, wham. I used to teach it all over the world, but now with COVID, uh, it’s, it’s better taught online that easier for everyone. And of course, there’s these maps that you can get with the locations we spent over a year, really working hard on getting all the specifics, um, for the point location to help people really, um, cause without the point of location, then no one would get results with this system. So these maps are very useful to have in clinic. Um, and then once you, you know, the points and you’ve taken the course, it’s all about practice.

Yes. Can you give us the, uh, the, the web, the name of your website or the name of, um, some online? Um, yes. Yeah,

Yeah. Um, so my website is a Chinesemedicinetraveller.com, a traveler with two L’s and.com. And you can find everything, uh, about the courses online, about the courses in various location that we have done in the past. And of course the charts are available for you. Great. Thank you very much for spending your time with us. And, uh, we definitely look forward to learning more about your entry criteria in the future. It was very nice seeing you again, Poney and thank you for this, uh, this chat. It was very fun. And, uh, looking forward to see you again,

Please subscribe to our YouTube Channel (http://www.youtube.com/c/Acupuncturecouncil ) Follow us on Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/acupuncturecouncil/), LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/american-acupuncture-council-information-network/) Periscope (https://www.pscp.tv/TopAcupuncture). Twitter (https://twitter.com/TopAcupuncture) If you have any questions about today’s show or want to know why the American Acupuncture Council is your best choice for malpractice insurance, call us at (800) 838-0383. or find out just how much you can save with AAC by visiting: https://acupuncturecouncil.com/acupuncture-malpractice-quick-quote/.