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To the point, generously sponsored by the American Acupuncture Council today. My guest is Leta Herman. And I’m Virginia Duran of Lumina beauty.com. And LE’s gonna talk about the ghost points and her special approach to treating them. Leta was on, I think it was last month on my show. And I don’t know if we need to introduce you again.
Thank you to the American Acupuncture Council for having me on the show. Yeah, I’ve been in practice for, over 20 years in teaching, a lot of different concepts related to alchemy. And so the 13 ghost points are alchemical treatments and we have a teaching a school called alchemy learning center.com.
And so we also have a clinic in Northampton, Massachusetts alchemy healing center.com. But my history is that I’ve been doing this work for a very long time. And I study extensively with Jeffrey UN. Who a lot of this work, I was doing the ghost points before I met Jeffrey UN, but a lot of the work since then, since, early two thousands has been about Jeffrey’s, influence on my work.
Yeah, that’s good. And tell us, or for anybody who doesn’t know or at least your view of the ghost since not everybody uses them and they may not understand them the same way as you. So there are actually quite a few ghost points, 20 ghost points, and they were invented a very long time ago, but sun, which is also a very long time ago, sun, the king of medicine in China, a very famous practitioner decided to put together 13 of.
And these 13, he called the 13 ghost points and he wrote a what’s called the song of the 13 ghost points and owed. That explains how to do this mysterious treat. And it wasn’t, it really was a different kind of treatment and it really was for ghosts or obsessive thinking or any kind of obsession.
And so if you take these individual ghost points that, we all have learned and you just do one or two of them, you’re not really accessing the power of the ghost points. You can do one or two in the mode that. Working with them as a unit of 13, you can even do three is a common way.
People do them two or three of them in a treatment, but you need to understand the deeper ways of working with them, which I call getting into the void of your heart. And so in terms of just how you’re gonna do these points, they’re almost like rich ritualistic points. You have to think about the influence of doism on the treatments.
So those are some things to think about. And so the way that we are working with them is gonna look very different than, modern, classical or TCM type of practices. Do you, is there any kind of energetic flow with them? Like the way Meridian acupuncture looks at things? That’s a really good question.
They’re their own. Yeah, that’s the really good question. The flow isn’t so much aligned with the meridians at all. The flow has to do with things that are more external to a person. How I interact and react to the world would be the beginning of the treatment. And as you walk through the treatment, we’re looking at deeper and deeper issues.
So by the time you get to the last point, which is the identity of a person. You’re talking about the deepest kernel of a person’s authentic self. So you’re you’re beginning at what I like to call the door to your palace due 26 and you’re ending at well, there’s two alternative points.
We can explain that later, but we’re ending at what I like to call the identity of a person. Like when you came into the U in utero and you were a fetus, who was that spirit before you were even born and messed with by life who is that person? Yeah. And so that’s the flow. And do we know why he chose those 13 out of the.
No, we do not know why, from years and years of having treated these points, I do a as I’ve gotten more and more sophisticated, I really see that one leads to the next. And in my more advanced classes, I try to explain this, but it could take, hours for me to go through it.
But so it’s definitely a longer topic, but if you really look at the flow of things, And how things basically, how does like a trauma let’s say you experience a trauma, you were in a car accident. Okay. So now how is that trauma going to infiltrate into you and begin to really mess with you?
So in other words, we know a common. Side effect of having been in a car accident, let’s say you were on the highway every time you’re in that particular situation. Again, your body gets tense, you don’t, you’re looking around. You’re really alert. You’re in hyper drive, it’s like these are common, reactions to having had an accident before.
So how deep does that go? How much does that affect you? And that sort of how this flow of the treatment works. You begin to see that the more serious traumas are going to get in much deeper than. Oh, I had a little accident. I was a little traumatized for a few days. Maybe I was in shock, and then I got over it and I forgot about it.
And I moved on, so not much, or, something that changed your life dramatically. And we all have clients that come in and they’re like, ever since that day I’ve been changed dramatically. And that’s when you start thinking a 13 goes points, treatment would be really fantastic.
. Yeah, I see. What do you sense when you’re doing it? I wanna ask how the, how you do the treatment, but between the differences between these various ghost points and are they all involved with something like a trauma? Are there certain ones that you find seem to be more implicated? It’s certainly not just for trauma because there’s life circumstances that go on for a very long time.
That can be very trauma, like in a life let’s say you have parents who, when you get into your teens they’re just on you all the time. Be like me. I don’t like who you are. That’s very. Traumatizing, you might not consider it like a car accident or sexual abuse know or like trauma, but parental indoctrination or, yeah, there are a lot of things like that maybe in modern society, we wouldn’t think of as trauma.
Just even neglect by a parent. Is something the ghost points would be very helpful with. So you have to expand your horizons on really more. What we’re looking at is the symptom. What is the symptom? The symptom is, obsessive thinking and, or even some kind of entity possession, if you wanna go there.
Definitely I use the ghost points in my practice, mostly for. As I, I said before in our last podcast, anytime someone who is pretty much older than the age of 20 is as you move along in life, you accumulate more of these things. And so we go, oh, I don’t want that to ever happen again.
And every time we say no, that I’m never gonna let that happen again. That means we are on the alert constantly. For any scenario that looks like the previous scenario so that we can make sure it never happens again. Yeah. So that’s a lot of work. It’s exhausting. For, again, for anyone who’s older over the age of 20 I, I used to think the ghost points were really just for extreme cases of psychosis and, extreme O C, D or ex all kinds of things that we see, in our practice mental issues I used to think it was just for that.
And then what happened was I would treat people and their loved ones would say, wow, this person is completely changing, doing so great. I want that treatment and then I started doing it with them and I said, wow, look, it’s more mild with like you or me, if we had it and we’re not having any of those other symptoms.
Of psychosis or mental illness of any type. But these days, a lot of people have at least anxiety, if you think of that as a mental illness. So what we’re looking at is expanding the idea of these points to more of a general population and saying, yeah, not everyone needs that.
Some people are really living pure in themselves. Just really their authentic selves. They’re beautiful selves. They’re just really living who they are and they wouldn’t be a good candidate for this, but the rest of us , who’ve been around a while. We get a little funky and.
Most of the time is cuz we don’t want that thing to happen again. And that’s where the ghost points can really help. So I certainly still do them with people who have been diagnosed with mental illness and that level, but I’m also expanding it to say a lot of us need that right now. And I think in this society, I have seen a huge increase in people who are anxious.
Or depressed then, when I started 20 years ago. So I think it’s just been more and more something that has helped people and that I believe could help a lot more people there. It’s there’s something in the air people are feeling, and they don’t necessarily understand what it is.
And so it’s UNC. Panic or confusion, or could be depression that, is this gonna go on? What’s our future. And yeah, I think it’s very valid. So because you do a much longer, like a four to six hour treatment, can you kinda walk us through it because it’s, I think it’s hard for people to envision.
How do you do the good points in 46 hours? What is it that you’re doing differently? Okay. So imagine, trying to do something radical to help someone in an hour. We all know what the feeling is. When the clinician says time’s up, see you later. And you’re like,
so what we decided to do maybe 15 years ago or more was what if. And this isn’t just for the ghost points. There are other alchemical treatments and even the Worsely treatments like the IDs and the EDS can be done in this format. What we decided to do is say, What if the person could put aside time and space in their life to work on their stuff for the day, we’re not, we only say four to six hours because you really can’t predict, but you gotta give the person a little bit of okay, I should be available between these hours of the day.
Yeah. But what if we said there’s no time limit? What if we said you can tell your whole story in one session? I had a therapist the other day say to me I’ve never, and this is a psychotherapist. She said, I have never. Told my whole story to one person in one sitting in my entire life. And even if nothing else happens from this treatment today, she said that is such a healing and such a gift.
So if not everyone wants to tell their whole story in the ghost pointing treatment, but if that’s what, obviously what she wants, she’s a psychotherapist. But, in terms of what happens if I create a space for you to enter into and to give. Complete attention, complete presence and no judgment, none.
And I allow you to let whatever happens happen. You bring the treatment. I don’t do the treatment. I just facilitate the treatment by walking through this ancient sort of almost like a ritual of points. And as we go through those points, I can talk to you about what each theme is. So each point has a theme.
And as I say what do you think about the door and how you interface with the world? Since that trauma, did it change who you are? And then we begin to have this like really intelligent conversation about. Oh, yeah. Before that, I, when I was a little kid, I used to do things like this and I used to be like really social and now I’m not.
And so what changed that person? And so as you go through theme and you take your time and you don’t switch to a new point until that theme is done until you feel in your. Body mind, spirit that, okay, that’s good. I can move on to the next point, which is a big skill that we teach and how to develop that.
But all of us do that in our Chinese medicine treatments as acupuncturists, when the, the point is done, it’s just a little bit harder if you’re gonna spend an hour on one point . So we take our time and as part of how these treatments were done, traditionally was with music.
And so the idea is to bring in another vibrational component, we have the vibration of the point and the manipulation of the needles. However, you’re doing that. But in terms of how they looked at it now, remember a lot of these were DOIs priests. They did chanting, they played symbols and wood blocks and all kinds of instruments.
And so they would bring music. And so in the modern day, once the technology, now I started this before this was available. Once the iPod technology came out and the idea of shuffling songs and having a large body of music that you can access we now do that. We do it to music and it’s incredibly powerful.
I call it the divine DJ yeah. Oh, that’s funny. With the long treatments, this is something that I do in my own, in regular acupuncture, as well as the facial acupuncture, because I feel like you just can’t do really deep, transformative work. I can’t in a short period. There’s some perhaps that can, but I want to. relax into it and go deeper and deeper.
And I want the patient to have that experience instead of it being this sudden, I want it to be a smooth entry and exit, so to speak of in the treatment. So with you, do you find. Possible to do, cuz realistically it may not be possible for all practitioners to do this.
Maybe their patients can’t afford extended time sessions. How do you work with that? I. That’s a great question. And it’s probably the number one question that practitioners ask me. So when we teach our apprentices how to do these treatments, we start them by doing one point in the session or two points in a session.
And we pick points that from the ghost point, That aren’t going to disregulate a person too much because what can happen? What I love about doing the whole session in one, one day is that as you go through these points, you’re gonna get stirred up a little bit and sometimes a lot of it, and you’re gonna have a lot of things released and it’s nice to wrap it up in that day and to send them off with.
Some things resolved, to really get revolution. And that’s why it takes so long. And then I have them come back the next day or within a week and do a follow up session to make sure that they’re stable and not disregulated by, in some cases opening Pandora’s box. Frankly, if you’ve had a lot of really traumatic stuff in your childhood, it could feel like Pandora’s box.
If that happens, you need to make sure you’re there for them, the next day or the day after. And it can happen that someone feels that way. It’s rare that it’s like really distressing for them. Because again, if you do them together, there’s a resolution, there’s an elegant kind of map of that.
And they usually end up going home feeling like, yes, I feel great. But that’s, again, everyone’s different. And so that’s why I do this, what I call the follow up session that I include in it. So if you’re gonna break it down and say, Hey, I’d like to do the 13 ghost points over a period of time.
And if you wanted to map it out and do that, I’ve done that with people. But the risk you’re taking is that the person’s going to have to go home and deal with those emotions. Yes that may, maybe each point is accessing. And in some cases it’s too much for them. They’re not able to do that on their own.
They don’t have, me in their pocket as they go home going, Hey, it’s okay that you have these feelings. Let’s, the safe container. That I create in the room. Isn’t with them at home, they’ve got their partner, filling up whatever. So let’s say you just wanted to do a few, then there’s a few that I often teach in my webinars that are pretty safe.
So due 26 is my favorite one. And that is called ghost palace, but I like to call it the doer palace because it, it basically is the entryway. How you breathe, how you eat. It’s symbolizing, how things get interface with you. And so if that, one is out of whack in you cause of something that happened and you, and now, like you don’t know, maybe you used to have an open door to the world and now it’s like shut and you’ve got some locks on there and a little people, and you’re just really cautious everywhere you go.
That’s not the true, authentic, you. That’s the trauma that’s made that happen. But however, that’s a point that isn’t really that triggering for people in terms of, some of the deeper points like pericardium eight is later in the treatment. Now that point is for deep part pain. So you have to, so I actually had a person, I was treating the ghost points with over time and we got to this point and the strangest thing happened.
We treated it. And she went home that day and wherever she went that day, people screamed at her like at the gas station, like at the line, getting. She went home and her partner screamed at her. It, her kids and it, and, but here’s the weird thing. When I was doing the point, I wanted to scream at her and I didn’t know where that came from.
That’s never happened to me before, but something in her was evoking from the external world, what she felt and the trauma she had was so significant. Intense probably, I say there’s no hierarchy to paint, but most of the people in the world would’ve said, okay, her turn, she wins she wins that at very unfortunate contest.
And so that she was like the picture of the scream painting, she was like the. In herself. And so when she activated that point, now it, it made people outside of her, like furious with her. They wanted to scream at her. It was very bizarre. So that, , that’s an extreme example, but a lot of ghost points, stories sound really extreme, but there’d one off, that’s that happened once.
So I don’t want you to think. Yeah, sure. Every time we do. I see a couple questions coming in. One is a. You obviously can’t build their insurance. Okay. Here’s the thing I think. Every case is different. And to me, it depends on if you’re doing them in one hour sessions. It’s, as far as an insurance company is concerned, I think it’s just acupuncture.
However you build that. If you’re, if you wanted an all day session, like I would actually recommend, that’s gonna just depend on your insurance company and what they. Say about a long session. Like they might be more open to a two hour session. And maybe you break it up into longer chunks.
Like you were saying, Virginia, maybe you do two hour sessions. That’s enough to at least I would recommend, two hour sessions at a minimum. If you’re gonna, if you’re gonna try to break it up for insurance purposes, I think you might get coverage for that perhaps so while one person asked are the points done?
Bilaterally? Yes. And then also somebody said, where is there something more written about it from you in the way that you’re doing. I like the book it’s through the mystery gate, is it? Yes. Yeah. The book through the mystery gate explains alchemy in general, and we have some case studies that we included in the book in terms of points, we have a ghost points online email@example.com and we have an apprent.
and we have classes that are more in general, not just the points themselves. So if you’re thinking, whoever asks this question, if you’re thinking about doing this, I recommend also looking at what I call the becoming and alchemical healer classes that we’re going to be. Having on the site in the future and alive at different times.
So you have to just go check the site out, but those kinds of classes are more about the technique than the physical points, the points you already know, we’re gonna explain them more in the classes, if you wanna take a class in and the ghost points, but the really hard doing that as an online class, we.
It’s always available so you can sign up yeah. At the alchemy learning center.com. And so you wrote on with, I have the transcript from your webinar with Lotus and each point is your teacher. Yeah. You must develop your own relationship with each point. I love that. So I don’t know if there’s anything more you wanna say about.
Or any specifics. So I think what I really think about what I bring to this work, because it’s not like there’s any secrets out there. Like we all know what since emails owed is you can find it online. But what does it mean? And so even when I learned it from my different teachers They explained it more technically, and as we use the points over and over again, so I’m doing two or three of these treatments a week, so I’m really learning.
So they teach me. So over time, for example, calling this the door to your palace was something that I began to feel maybe 10 years ago. So I started saying, oh, wow, whenever I’m doing this point, people wanna talk about this topic. and when I learned what the character meant. For the point. It did.
It does mean that when they say palace for that as a translation, what they’re talking about is the part of the palace where the common people can come in. So it’s the interface of the palace. It’s like a big courtyard or hall where, you know, where everyone gets met, as opposed to later in the treat.
There’s another point due 23, which is called or often translated as hall, you can translate it many different ways, of course, but that hall character is the hall that’s closest to the emperor’s bedroom. So it’s the place where the safest people get entry. . So how does that interact or interface with the pericardium?
Energetic. I think of that. Yes. Think of the heart is a sovereign rule and you have your small official, official at the outer gate. Then you have the pericardium official yes. Regarding the inner gate so that the heart is not, or the sovereign is not burden with all the dramas of life and or people’s dramas.
So is it that kind of. . Yes. So actually there are two pericardium points in the list of the 13 ghost points, and there’s actually a number other of other paracardial points that are ghost points that aren’t in the 13, but the two that are in the 13 are pericardium seven and pericardium eight. And interestingly pericardium seven is playing the role of more that outer level. It’s it? It comes in the treatment at the point where things start to get deeper. But they’re not quite deep yet. So the first Trinity is really about how the trauma on the outer part of you, like, how do I see the world differently now?
How do I interact with the world? I would explain how do I see the world differently? And now how. How do I trust that things are okay? Do I start having am I racked with doubt for the first time? Yeah. About what’s gonna happen out in the world. So those are very external things. And then as we go to the second Trinity points, pericardium seven is the first one.
So you would think that would be a really deep point, but what it is it’s transition. Okay. Now that this is happening all out there. How are my relationships gonna change? How am, how is my heart gonna start to feel about interactions still with the outside world, but it’s that interface that, that pericardium that heart protector function that pericardium seven points about.
And then much later in the treatment, right before the intimacy point we just talked about due 23 is pericardium. and it’s like, where do we store our deepest heart pains, in the void of the heart in, so it’s representative of much deeper issues. So that, that, that’s how now, oddly, there’s no small intestine point in the beginning.
It’s not really it, small inte doesn’t. Ma talks about pericardium six for like breakups and relationships and the, that, those kind of yeah. Traumas. And then he says pericardium seven for men for men makes me, yeah. Okay regarding sex for women. So I, it just made me think do you find a difference that might be attributable to, we know about the differences in pulses between male and female.
Is there any difference you notice with the ghost points between the two sexes? We’re gonna limit it to that. Oh, between the two sexes. I was gonna talk about Perone six of pero seven. Okay. Oh, about that? Yeah, that would be really interesting. I’ll hold that thought. Between the sexes. Other than the physical points, we do a different point for men than women on the ghost.
Hidden. Theme. We do Ren one for men and we do an extra point called you men on women, which is above the clitoris. So that’s, obvi an obvious difference. But other than that, I’d have to think about it because nothing comes to mind about the differences. Like he’s saying. However, Perone six of Perone seven is a really interesting topic because in another treatment that we do in alchemy, which is called, I call the nine heart pains.
Treatment and that we’re going through all the pericardium points in as part of the treatment . And as we get to pericardium, actually we go reverse direction in the pericardium channel, as we do pericardium seven. Now, remember pericardium seven is often translated as burial ground. So what is that person needing to put in the ground?
What do we wanna have a funeral for? Oh, that rape that I had that has plagued my entire life and made me miserable from that day forward. Maybe it’s time to set it aside and bury it in the ground and say, can I put it away? Can I let it go? Can I let it go? So as part of this long treatment of heart pains, we’re working through some, I’m just using a very extreme example.
Of course, then when I get to paracardial, It’s okay, now maybe you successfully put that away. And can you now open your heart? That inner frontier. Can I allow that pericardium now to begin to like a flower begin to transform and open again. So that would be Perone six. And again, that wouldn’t really matter.
Male or female this is a good example of why a longer time, a longer session, a longer treatment is all more viable because we’re running outta time. Yes, according to this program. And I just say about male, female, that I just forgot. That’s really obvious. We start with male on the left and we start with female on the right when you’re treating bilaterally.
So that’s an obvious difference. That might answer somebody’s question. Yes. A little bit. There’s so many, so much more we could say, but thank you so much for doing this, taking your time and It’s just such a fascinating topic love to know more about it. So I wanna also thank the American Acupuncture Council for hosting the show and all the work they’re doing.
And I’m grateful leader for people like you who are exploring the outer reaches in such a beautiful way. Thank you for tuning. Thank you. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. Oh, sure. Thank you. Okay, so your website again, alchemy learning center.com and alchemy learning center.com.
Yeah. And you can look at the live event page for, upcoming live streams. Great. And on luminous beauty.com, having some problems with my website, but you can email me if you have a question. So thank you again, and we will see you all soon. Bye. Thank.