So in general, I think the physical examination is essential to all of us, no matter what style of acupuncture we practice, especially if you’re treating any kind of pain or injuries.

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Hi. Good afternoon. My name is Poney Chiang from neuro-meridian.net. I’m joining you today from Toronto Canada. Uh, welcome to this week’s show for the American Acupuncture Council. Uh, my guest for today is Jamie Chavez. Jaime Chavez has been a licensed acupuncturist in California since 2002, and he received his master’s in traditional Chinese medicine and 5, 4, 5 branches and has participated in internships in Beijing, China. He specialized in the treatment of a work-related injuries. He is currently the head acupuncturist in a prominent bay area. Workers’ compensation connects and works alongside medical doctors, physiotherapists and orthopedic surgeons. Jamie is passionate about the art of physical examination and integrates multidisciplinary approach in the assessment treatment of MSK pathologies. Jamie has been an instructor in several bay area acupuncture schools at both the master’s and doctoral level. It was during this time that he discovered his passion for teaching.

Jamie has had the honor of introducing acupuncture to medical residents who periodically shouted him for clinical rounds. He has been a guest lecture for Stanford physician assistant program, and it has been actively teaching physical examination skills to acupuncturist in hospital settings. Jamie continues to find joy in spreading the word about the effectiveness of acupuncture. Also, you may, in case you haven’t know, um, you don’t know, and you should, you, Jamie is also the admin and founder of the Dow, uh, Facebook group, which is discussion acupuncture, orthopedics. So it having waiting to interview, uh, Jamie for a long time. Now he’s a busy guy, our schedules just never coincided. So I’m very, very, very excited to finally be able to make that happen. And, um, and very much looking forward to this, uh, this interview. Thank you so much for joining us. Jamie,

Thank you for having me. It’s a pleasure. Yeah.

So you are, um, the, um, the very passionate about physical examination and, uh, I know, you know, a lot of people don’t do that. And so for those of us that probably need a bit of, um, motivation or, um, what is it that you can tell us in terms of what makes physical examination so important to clinical practice?

So in general, I think the physical examination is essential to all of us, no matter what style of acupuncture we practice, especially if you’re treating any kind of pain or injuries. Um, it’s a way of holding yourself accountable so that you can prove or disprove your own thinking about what you are, you know, thinking is going wrong with patient. So someone comes in with the chief complaint and you gather the data and you think something’s going on, but you have to hold yourself accountable. You have to keep yourself in check and try to, um, eliminate your own bias and, uh, basically try to get better at gaining clinical experience because we’re all researchers in the clinic. And so this is our way to do research. So we want to find things that are reproducible, repeatable, and physical examinations, that bridge, you know, for me.

That’s great. Um, I have heard you talk about, um, uh, I’ve heard that you really enjoy teaching through acronyms and mnemonics and, uh, you know, it was just, we learned by association. So it’s good to have something to kind of associate things with, um, when it comes to, um, physical examinations, is there any, uh, not mnemonics that you think would be helpful for us to, to become more comprehensive in our, um, uh, intakes or in our assessments?

Yes, there’s a ton of them out there. I mean, I’ve, I’ve gathered and tried all these different ones over the years. Um, but none of them really, uh, crossed over and applied directly to an acupuncturist. So, you know, there was, there was missing pieces or the order was not right. So I came up with a mnemonic, um, a horse, uh, H O R S E. And I’ve been sticking with that one ever since. And, um, I can explain a little bit about what each of those letters means. Um, the H is the history of the patient. So that’s, you know, their past history, which is the things they fill out on the initial intake form, but then there’s the present history, which is, you know, regarding their chief complaint, what brought the patient into the clinic to be seen today, let’s get all the data regarding that specific topic.

And then, uh, the, oh, is the, uh, observation. So what do you see from the patient? And that’s now we’re getting into the physical exam skills. So what do you see when you look at the patient? And that usually begins the moment you lays up, you know, they eyes on them when they’re in the waiting room, when you walk them back to the treatment room and then, you know, there’s other, you know, key pieces that you’re going to look for, depending on what they’re coming in to be treated for. But observations really important. I’m very passionate about observation because it’s so fast and you can see so much if you know what you’re looking at. And a lot of times we see things, we just don’t know how to interpret it. So that’s something I’ve been really passionate about over the last couple of years and just really diving deep into it, just diagnosing by looking, um, the are for horses, range of motion, which is essential.

It’s one of the most important things that anybody can start using right away, because it’s so fast and you get so much data from the patient. There’s different types of range of motion. So there’s active range of motion. There’s passive range of motion. There’s resisted range of motion, resisted range of motion could be like your manual muscle tests, right? It’s all in that frame. You know, passive range of motion could be your muscle length tests. You know, there’s many different ways to look at that. And then the S is the special tests. Um, so that’s the orthopedic tests. Some people call those provocative tests because you’re trying to basically tease out where the problem’s coming from. And then the E is explored by palpation. You know, hands-on diagnosing by touching. So each of those, you know, contributes to the horse acronym, and that is the order of operation for me.

So we talked to the patient first, and then when it comes to physical exam, we look at them, we have them go through a movement assessment and that could be active, passive, or resisted, or all of them at the same time, you know, check each one individually and you would want to do it in that order. So active range of motion is first because you want to see how willing the patient is to even move right away. You’re already, you know, gauging where they’re at when you want to do other tests down the road, and then you would do passive next. And then you would do resisted last because resistive could be provocative. It could cause pain in a patient. You always save painful tests for last, because if you cause your patient discomfort, you know, they may say, okay, I don’t want to do this anymore.

Right? Like, let’s stop the exam here. So you’d, and if they’re, if you provoke their pain, you know, it also skews your results for everything else you check, because now that, you know, they feel a little discomfort. Now, everything you check is you don’t know how valid it is. And then for us, you know, we’re acupuncturist. So what are we going to do before we stick a needle? Now we’re going to palpate. So why not do that last? Um, and that in itself, how patient is provocative, it causes pain and patients. So definitely we want to save that towards the end and then go right into our needle. Hm.

Okay. I like that. It’s like from the, from the, uh, assessment, the palpation diagnostics, and it goes transition smoothly into the actual needling component. So it’s, it’s very seamless. Um, I’ve heard of, you mentioned something called the ABCs before. Is that also a type of, uh, assessment or is that something different?

That’s another acronym. So like, you’re mentioning, I love, I love mnemonics and acronyms. Right? Um, what, what you see a lot of, and, you know, I, you know, with social media and things, you kind of get a sense for how well people are able to extract data from their patient. Um, but the ancient horse is the history. And I have an entire course just on how to do, you know, a history. You know, we could talk about that all day, but to keep it really simple, there’s key components that you have to get from your patient when they come in. And there’s tons of acronyms for this. But the one that sticks with me the most is just knowing your alphabet. Cause who doesn’t know their alphabet. Right. That’s like the basics. So it’s, but this part of the alphabet is old. P Q R S T.

If you can remember OPQ Q R S T, you can get all the data very quickly from your patient. So for example, like if you like pony, if you’re on my patient and let’s say you shoulder pain, I would ask you the O, which is, you know, when did this happen? The onset, the O is for onset. When did this happen? And how often do you feel this complaint? Is it 24 hours a day? Or does it come and go if it comes and goes, how long does it hang around before you know, those kinds of things? So that’s the O the P is palliative and provocative palliative means, you know, uh, soothing to the pallet. So something that makes you feel better. So pony, what makes your shoulder feel better? What makes it feel worse? The other part of the P is provocative. Like these are essential questions, because if you tell me it feels worse at night when you’re sleeping, I already know there’s something wrong with your sleeping position.

That needs to be correct. You know, those kinds of things. Can you tell me he feels good, then obviously you’re going to feel good when you leave. When I use infrared heat, moxa, hot pack, you know, we already know what it’s going to help. Um, so the next thing is the quality and the quantity. So, um, you know, the quality of your pain tells us a lot. Is it sharp, dull, achy, burning, throbbing, et cetera. You know, the nature of pain gives us some clues. And then we can go to the quantity, which is like zero to 10. How is your pain right now in this moment that you’re talking to me, you know? And then how is it at its worst in the last 24 hours? How is it at its best then the last 24 hours? So that’s how we could use that pain scale a little more accurately.

And then the RSM LPQ. So O P Q R the R is radiate. Does it radiate anywhere? Is your, is your discomfort localized or does it go to a different area of your body? And this is important not to lead the patient. So if someone comes in with sciatica, I don’t say, does the, does the pain radiate from your back down to the bottom of your foot? Like you wouldn’t ask, you wouldn’t lead the patient, you gotta leave the questions open. Like, does your pink go anywhere else? If so, where and how often, you know, and then T is time, is your symptoms worse during a certain time of the day, morning, afternoon, or night? If you say you keep waking up in pain, I know something’s going on with your sleeping position, or maybe you have some arthritic changes, you know, and they get better as you warm up.

So it already gives you a lot of clues, but what you see as a lot of people don’t gather that data when they present case studies and things, and in the subjective information is key. Like you already have a clue, like a very good clue of what the problem is before you ever laid hands on the patient. If you do that old PQRST. And now when you get into the rest, the physical exam, you’re again, just trying to prove or disprove your hypothesis. So if I tell you, Hey, pony, I think you have a rotator cuff tear, and this is the reason why you have these symptoms, but then you have these data points and, you know, it’s like proving a case to yourself, holding yourself accountable versus like, well, I just heard that pain there means you could have this, you know, like, or I, when I press here at Hertz, like that’s not enough data we need to, we need to be more, um, we need to, to raise the bar on our level of a practice, you know?

That’s great. Yeah. Um, I definitely think that if you, if one does a very good history, um, oftentimes, you know, with some, with enough clinical experience, you already have you already kind of starting to find out in New York, you almost, you’re just doing one or two orthopedic tests to confirm, you know? Um, so, uh, a good history taking can actually, in a way, it seems like time-consuming, people might not want to do it, but it’s actually the opposite. I think that if you did a good history taking, you end up having to hone in faster and you’re going to be, uh, maybe it’d be more, more efficient in your practice. Actually. It’s not, it’s actually the, counter-intuitive not the other way around. Um, um, like for example, um, uh, I like the accountability discussion, you know? Um, because here’s the thing, obviously, as a practitioner, we, we, we always, we sometimes deal with practitioner at patients that are more difficult to say, oh, the pain is still there.

The pain is still there. Yeah. But it’s like 10% of what it used to be. Right. So, you know, it’s, you can’t make a yes or no. You have to, you know, many ways the quantitative or qualify it. Right. It does not refer. So this is how, you know, as meditation is working, but also sometimes the patient needs help knowing that too, because to them it’s like yes or no. Right. And yeah, and now the weird thing is that, um, the opposite can happen. Sometimes they can not be getting better, but they have so much trust in you. They say, say they are better, you know, that happens too. So, so these tests go both ways. It actually helps you, you know, if is actually better than not even though the patient might say it’s better, but it actually may not be. Right. So that’s

A good point.

Yeah. I know. So like,

They don’t want to hurt your feelings. They want to say, oh yeah, you’re doing a good job, you know,

But, uh, but you know, some sometimes, you know, I mean, of course there’s the, the, this, the report is the placebo effect. You know, the attention being heard, you know, uh, you know, maybe we just, I keep putting in needles, we help them to sleep in their, you know, their stress level is better. So indirectly things have gone better, but right. But you know, maybe the range of motion didn’t get better, that sort of things. But, you know, it is, if you didn’t take the time to do these assessments, then you’d be, you know, you’re not really truly helping the patient. Right. So I, I, I’m such a big fan of, um, of, um, these, um, more objective measures and does, so I hope I have a chance to, uh, to take one of your classes in near future.

Thank you. Yeah. Likewise. Yeah. There’s, I mean, the, the objective things is amazing. Cause it’s really the whole story. Like if you just, if you don’t go, if you don’t do that, you’re missing half the story. It’s like going to the movies and walking out halfway through, you’d never even found out what the ending was. You know, like by doing these things, like you said, you hold yourself accountable, you can see the, you know, the full presentation and something that I’ve been really like, just kind of blown away is that the more you do this, you start to understand your patient, the person in front of you better, you understand how they hurt themselves. And then you, you know, as you treat them and they start to get better, you’re able to have a better picture on Tet, you know, how to teach them how to prevent themselves from getting hurt.

Again, you know, it’s like the back pain I’ve been seeing so much ridiculous at the, in the last few months, I think from all the people working at home, sitting too much and things, but it’s always like, you know, their sleeping position, their sitting position or their standing position, how they stoop and twist and things. And then if you can identify the activities for them and show them how to move a little better, it’s like, wow, these patients that have had pain for 11 months over a year, nothing’s helping them after a couple of visits, all of a sudden they just shift, you know, it’s like, wow, okay. Those are the patients that are listening to your advice, you know, and then, you know, your acupuncture treatment and or whatever treatment you’re doing is going to hold better. It’s going to have a better, uh, um, lasting effect because they don’t just go home and immediately do the thing that w was causing their injury to begin with.

You know, so those are, it’s just, it’s so it’s so vital. And before I forget too, one of the things that I think is really important as clinical experience. So I know we always talk about, you know, okay. People like to talk about how many patients they’ve seen, but I look at it as like, how many pushups can you do? You can probably do a hundred really lousy pushups, but could you do like 10 really good ones? And I think that’s the same with treating patients. Can you treat 10 patients really good? And if you can, I think your clinical experience is going to be so much more profound than treating a hundred or a thousand patients very quickly without getting all that data, getting that feedback and seeing what your, you know, your input, what your needles are actually doing. So the more you go deeper, you know, you get a richer, more fulfilling experience that, you know, it’s going to help other people more down the road, you know,

[inaudible], you know, I actually, I find, um, um, you know, a lot of times the patients that come to our practice, um, have gone through the conventional healthcare system, which is not known for spending time with their patients. Right. So how do you know you remember how many times patients say to you? Oh, you know, you, they, they say that, oh, you know, more than my neurologist or, you know, more than my surgeon. It’s not that we know more than them. It’s just that we actually take the time to ask questions and do the assessments. So, but, but for whatever it’s worth that time, that the demonstration of your knowledge and doing the testing, listen carefully, it’s actually building rapport and confidence. So they’re already ready to be needled and treat it right by you. Right. You know, that’s a, that’s a big part of, um, the efficacy. I think that, you know, yeah. Like, you know, you explain what’s going on. Why is the referring for example, right. And this is why I’m going to show you here, even though you, your, your pain is there, but I’m going to need a, you hear that, that you lay out in race, a logical progression, and th they put them put some at and comfortable with you. Right. And I think that goes a long way to, you know, that rapport building is huge.

Yeah. I think that’s it.

Yeah. And, and I think that’s one, um, value of a good history or assessment taking that is, you know, it’s not just a, you know, a left brain diagnostic thing is actually can become a right brain emotional and relationship building kind of thing.

Absolutely. I had a, um, a patient yesterday and she was telling me that she went to another acupuncturist and she had a bad treatment. And then I saw I’m naturally gathering data all the time. So I said, well, what defines a bad treatment to you? You know, I want to know, cause I don’t want to repeat those mistakes. And so, you know, basically she went in for back pain, the patient, the practitioner said, so what’s going on? You have back pain. Okay. Let’s have you lay on your stomach needles in needles out after she gets off the table. Okay. Have a nice day. Never once anything else. And I don’t, I don’t want to, I’m not saying that that’s bad. I mean, I’ve treated, been shaded by amazing practitioners that that can do that. But what I’m saying for us, you know, for the majority of people, you know, taking the time to actually figure out what’s going on with the person and letting them know that you, you know, what you’re doing is profound versus the shotgun approach where I just do protocols or recipes for every person.

And then you depend on that. So when it works great, you’re the hero. You feel so good about the experience, but when it doesn’t work, you have no idea what to do next, you know? And then it goes back to what you’re saying, like, you know, that, that rapport, but what I see as it comes down to trust, like your patients need to trust you. And if you know what you’re talking about, and you can explain it to the patient on their level, you can see that trust right away. I mean, I had a new patient yesterday. I didn’t even put needles in yet and he’s already trying to refer me people. I haven’t even treated him yet. It’s because he had four different complaints and we were able to like, okay, here’s, what’s at this. And he’s like, Hey, you know, you know where my problem’s coming from. He’s like, you know, can I send people to you? And I haven’t even treated him yet, you know? But the trust, the trust is already there.

So the take home message is that do good assessment through good history and it’ll lead to more referrals,

More trust. And not only tomorrow,

That’s talk about common mistakes that we make in our, in our, um, clinical examination, history, taking process. Uh, you know, as an instructor, you, um, must see this a lot. Can you help give us some ideas of what are some things that we can do better? Where some common examination mistakes. I thought you mentioned, for example, don’t say, does your pain start from here? Refer there. I don’t don’t coach them. That’s one. Right? Anything else that you can, you can let us know? Yeah.

Yeah. For sure. There’s a ton, obviously, you know, I’m making mistakes all the time and learn from them. But I say the number one mistake is to assume anything. Um, so if you start assuming things, you know, you don’t leave room for air and there, and as you, you know, get experience in this profession, you become very aware that nothing is always right. So you always see people say, oh, that treatment works like a charm. That treatment works every time that no, it doesn’t, you know, like there’s no, there’s no perfect of anything. So I wouldn’t jump on the thing and say, you have a rotator cuff tear based, you know, I’m certain of this for me. I like to say, well, these things suggest the possibility that this might be going on, but I could be wrong. And, but we’re going to treat it like that.

And we’re going to keep reassessing as we go. And if what we’re doing is working great, let’s keep doing it. If it’s not working, we’re probably missing something. Leave the door open for mistakes, because you’re going to make mistakes every single day. And if you’re at this level where you don’t make mistakes and you, you feel like everything works like a charm, um, you have to check yourself, you have to hold yourself accountable and get back to this understanding that, you know, there is no two people that are exactly the same. And you could be very wrong about this person in front of you. I mean, I had a person with supposedly a rotator cuff tear who had cancer in his shoulder. And it took, it took the doctors a while to figure out that there was a tumor in there, you know, but if I, I learned a valuable lesson from that experience, because if I was in private practice, he was getting better with acupuncture.

He was a swimming teacher and he was getting his range of motion, was getting better. He was getting stronger, less pain. He was doing good. Unfortunately, there was cancer in there and I did not, there was no way I would have known it. I would have thought that, Hey, okay, you’re doing good discharge you. So, I mean, never, never assume anything in this business. Um, so that’s a big mistake. I think another big mistake is to, uh, jump on a bandwagon. So you learn a couple of assessments tools, and you think that’s all there is you need to continue to go deeper. You know, it’s not one thing, you know, if you do manual muscle testing, for example, that’s a great tool, but that’s not your entire picture of that horse acronym. That’s a one little sliver and you need to incorporate as many of those pieces as you can, to develop an educational guests that support your hypothesis.

So if you only have one little sliver of information and you go, okay, you, your problem is this because you know, this muscle is weak or whatever you are missing, the bigger picture, you know? So I would say, you know, keep learning like never, never, you know, get satisfied. You got to go deep. And if you want to try to get better at something, what I found helpful for me is just pick a body part. So like, for example, I keep saying shoulder, cause it’s on my mind. But you know, if you go to the say, I want to learn shoulders, you can learn shoulders really easily. I mean, the technology is in your hand, the anatomy is in your, in your phone, just take some notes, right. But then what you need to do is just, you know, fill in the blanks of that horse.

So what kind of questions should I ask someone who has a shoulder problem? There are some specific questions that can help guide your, if you’ve got pain at nighttime, that’s a very common symptom of rotator cuff tears. When, you know, wakes you up from your sleep. It doesn’t mean you have a rotator cuff tear if you wake up from sleep. But it’s just one more data point or one more clue. You know, if you, you know, what do you see when you look at a patient who has a rotator cuff issue, what is their range of motion going to be like actively passively resisted? And then what special tests can help differentiate two competing diagnosis? So maybe there’s like, I think it’s this or this. Well, there’s going to be some tests that can be used that differentiate that. And then when it comes to palpation, that’s our, that’s our expertise.

But just know what’s underneath your finger. You got to get in there and know how to differentiate. If I pop a [inaudible] with the arm, you know, resting on some, like my hands on my belly and I press on July 15, I’m touching the supraspinatus tendon. But if my hand is out to the side on the table with my Palm to the ceiling and our press, I 15, I’m more likely pressing the biceps tendon now. So it’s just like little subtle things like that. Can, you know, they’re so basic, but when you apply them, it seems like it’s advanced, but it’s really not. Um, so those, those are some common things off the top of my head, but there are a lot of things that we do wrong and there’s still a lot of things that I do wrong, but I think maybe the, the worst thing you could do is stop learning, you know, keep being motivated because we’re helping people.

And we’re in this profession that is bridging this gap between surgery and everybody else that’s not helping these patients like we are on the frontline and acupuncture is that effective. It blows my mind every day, but we have to have a way to test how effective it is to get that experience that I was talking about that helps us to be better. And then share that information freely, freely with your colleagues. So everybody’s better. I think that is one of the best things we can do as a profession. And I hope we can get there.

Certainly I think if, um, we all up our own game by becoming better at doing assessments, it would transform the prestige and the, you know, the, uh, the reputation of our, our profession for sure. Right? Like, uh, the it’s, um, now I will run out of time, but I, I, I have to pick your brain. Okay. Um, I want you, can you share like a clinical Pearl with us? I always like to do this, something that you pay, perhaps you really good at treating, you know, you’re talking about shoulders today, anything about shoulders or something like that, that, uh, you know, some, some assessment or diagnostic advice you can give us so that we can maybe try it out, or maybe it’s something that we’re not, not thinking in that way and give us a different thinking cap to help us look at the body or assess, um, the patient, any advice for our fellow listeners and viewers today.

Sure. Um, my lead-in will be that, you know, there are, there is this like, you know, movement where people are saying, you know, special tests, orthopedic tests are not good. Those people unfortunately have not done the research. And it’s much easier to say it’s not good then to dive deep and learn it because it takes a long time to really understand all these things. And I know because I’ve been going through it. But one thing that I’ve been doing in the last year is digging in and picking apart all the research and starting to pick out, you know, tests that have been proven time after time to be effective and how effective those tests are like, uh, you know, changing your post-test probability of someone having a problem. So no orthopedic tests are not bad. Yes, they’re great. But you have to understand how to utilize them.

So a really simple clinical Pearl for shoulders is if somebody tries to raise their arm over their head, but they can’t. And they ended up shrugging their shoulder into their ear. Based on the research, they are 15% more likely to, if they, if they can do this without shrinking their shoulder, they’re 15% less likely I should say, to not have a rotator cuff problem. So people who can raise their arm easily and freely, you know, that’s, they could still have a rotator cuff issue because people are asymptomatic and so forth. But when you see somebody shrug their shoulder into their ear to try to raise their arm, what that tells you right away, is there something wrong with their shoulder? It doesn’t tell you what it is, but it’s what they’ve narrowed it down to. It’s either the rotator cuff it’s frozen shoulder, or they have arthritis in the joint so that there is a sh there’s a high probability that somebody has a shoulder issue.

If they put their shoulder in their ear to try to raise their arm over their head and they can raise it all the way. And then as a side note, let’s say, you’re that person that can raise your arm easily, but you can’t bring it down very easily. Like you have to bend your elbow to, to shorten the moment arm so that it’s not as heavy. You end up bending the arm or you support it to bring it down. That starts showing you like, okay, this person is more likely to have a rotator cuff issue. And that sign alone changes the post-test probability by 15%. So what does that mean? Wow, that’s a lot of information, but what they’ve shown is the number one risk factor for rotator cuff injuries is age. And if you’re 60 years old, you’re 25% more likely to have a rotator cuff tear.

If you come in saying my shoulder hurts. So 25% of those people have rotator cuff tears. If that person has a hard time lowering their arm, now you add to that 25%, an extra 15, and you go, oh, this person is 40% likely to have a rotator cuff tear going on. Just with that information alone. I didn’t even ask them any questions and they do it at intake. I didn’t do the other tests. Just those two pieces of information alone. He’s 40% more likely to have a rotator cuff tear. He’s 60 years old and he can’t lower his arm without bending his elbow and supporting it. So these tests, when you use them like that, they can give you some good clues to support your hypothesis.

Thank you so much. I would love that because a lot of times people look at things like under, you know, on the way up or, or, uh, doing the activation part, but they don’t look at the entire process. There’s another 50% of it is when they put themselves back into neutral position. And that, that part you mentioned where they with shortening their arm. Like if you just turn around to do your charting, you would miss that complete, right? Yeah. That’s exactly right. Yeah. So I really, I really, really watched the entire process. You know, I really read a lot, so I thank you very much. I’d love, I learned so much from you in this short amount of time that we have for today. Where can the rest of us go? If we want to find out more information about your courses, do you have any contact information, you know, website, social media, uh, work. When you go to, if you want to study more with you in the future,

Um, you can check out the Facebook group discussions on acupuncture, orthopedics, uh, Dao, D a O is the acronym to make it easy to remember. Cause I love that. There you go. So, and then I have my website it’s www.orthopedic-acupuncture.org, orthopedic-acupuncture.org.

Thank you so much, Jamie. It’s been a pleasure. It’s been an honor to finally meet you virtually face-to-face. Thank you very much. They are that. Yeah. Thank you for most of our fellow viewers. And don’t forget to join us next week, where we’re going to have my fellow host, Virginia Doran. Uh, gimme another excellent show.